P&LE scenario for testing purposes

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P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:42 pm

Many of you have installed the P&LE final version available from RWA.com and elsewhere and found it comes with only free roams.
I think it has huge potential, but needs some serious consideration and touching up here and there. The omnipresent octogenarian from the other board gave his seal of approval to the route and the author has moved on the a new route. This probably means everybody is left to fend for himself, which is a pity, for it is a great route that can only get better by giving it some service.

Here are two simple point to point test runs I used in evaluating the route for prototype like operation, my purpose with TS2012.

Aliquippa to McKeesport is my first ever attempt to write a scenario. You leave at dawn and are expected to arrive some 75 minutes later. There is only one other train scheduled, it runs the same route as your player train but in opposite direction. Expect to meet it somewhere halfway. Your train is restricted to 35 MpH by employee timetable and you will be penalized for speeding at the control points. Due to some flaws in the signalling I don't even think it is possible to earn the green tick, unfortunately. You have to tab your way across a few sticking reds and even then get a SPAD penalty.
I don't like the use of the same size of switch for each and every turnout, and since your empty player train has lesser priority, you are forced to take siding or the secondary main.
Since there is no distinction between track speed, medium speed and low speed turnouts and neither the signalling nor speed signs are of much help, stick to this employee timetable rule: all diverging routes are 15 MpH! Look ahead with the HUD and use the "9" key often when you've never run the P&LE before. So expect to slow down upon entering and leaving single track sections: at Montour Junction, in and out of J&L Tunnel, up and down from the Rankin bridge over the Monongahela river and on leaving and entering any yard.

The return scenario McKeesport to Aliquippa has you in the cab of a 10000 tons loaded coal train with DPU assistance. This train has a higher priority and is routed through straight and clear but limited to 30 MpH all the way by ETT rule. Expect to arrive in Aliquippa at the fall of dusk, the yard is nicely lighted. In typical newbie fashion I have grown a little bolder and have crammed in as much opposing, parallel and crossing traffic, none of which should interfere with your player train. There should be some nice parallel running with neighbour NS on the "Mon" line and a good meet under the Ohio Connecting bridge. In order for the staged moves to have their maximum effect try to stay at 30 MpH as close as possible since I don't know yet how to trigger AI trains and didn't risk interfering with the player train. So essentially it is just a show run, good for showing off the immense possibilities this route has to offer. Excitements sinks a little past McKees Rocks and once past Montour Junction there is little left to do or see before entering Aliquippa.

I don't know yet how to provide background information and/or documentation with a scenario, other than through inserted scenario markers. The route as is comes with only a few waypoints and markers. I intend to change the milepost markers for real railroad waypoints and cabins, as I have gathered quite a lot of material on the P&LE, including ETT's, track charts and detailed maps.

All rolling stock is default, so expect lots of boring black units. All yards are left mostly void of rolling stock because of already very low framerates. Since there are no portals provided, all AI trains stay in the game from start to end. Hopefully they behave like they should on your computers.
I found there is a great lack of plain and common freight cars, no proper 3 bay hoppers, ore jennies, mill gondolas or flatcars come with the game. Cars essential for an industrial layout like the P&LE have to be acquired from elsewhere and then often come with the wrong road names for an eastern to mid-western layout.

Road names are as follows:
CSX and NS obviously, MC = Monongahela Connecting, URR = Union Railroad, M = Montour, PCY = Pittsburgh, Chantiers & Youghiogheny, MKC = McKeesport Connecting, WLE = Wheeling & Lake Erie, BLE = Bessemer & Lake Erie. A few bright UP excursion trains pull into P&LE's 22nd street station to break the monotony of freight trains.
You can substitute the boring blacks into the new repaints of late with your RW_Tools to your own liking.

The scenario comes in a rwp package, so can easily be removed by the package manager.
I plan to take it apart and substitute real dispatcher/train order parlance later and combine it with your critique and comments for hopeful inclusion in the RWA library.
I don't know the criteria for inclusion in the RWA library or if this scenario is up to scratch or even playable. What is the acceptable timespan or attention span of the typical player for instance?
P&LE puts a huge demand on TS2012 due to its size and lovely detail but once fps drops below 14, time is being stretched !*not-ok*! The scheduled 75 minutes for 32 something miles last longer on my computer. I suppose mileage is measured by TS2012 istself as the mileposts are inaccurate and some are even doubled.

So please download from here and tell me how it goes on your install, your mileage will vary.
http://www.mediafire.com/?83ccbhltidmmtwc
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby glenn68 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:04 pm

I'll give it a try. I have some good knowledge of the P&LE and the other railroads you have mentioned, especially the Montour, which I am building a scenario for right now.
Oh before I forget, I may swapp out some of the motive power.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:56 pm

Yes, Glenn, you should. There are a few Montour repaints available. As there are proper P&LE units, but no Union, Monongahela Connecting or Bessemer. I suppose these roads mostly use(d) drag power like EMD TR herds, Baldwins and such. I would love to get that hot metal torpedo and slag cars to haul around the J&L, USS or Edar Thomson works.

Re: Montour: given the orientation of the yard and interchange track bundles at Montour Jct. I suppose most of the M's coal traffic was west (north) bound, for Aliquippa, Beaver and possibly even Youngstown and beyond. Correct?

If Thomas Bontempo, the author can be encouraged to continue with his route all the way to Youngstown I would be very pleased for it would make the P&LE truly complete and finished. That is an enormous and remarkable feat all by itself. !*salute*!
Even with the route's present flaws, which are perhaps only my perception, it still is a great piece of routebuilding. The scenery is absolutely top notch and it has a nice human touch as well. I do plan to make a copy of it and change it to my liking over time. I.e give NS and PLE/CSX different and distinctive track and signalling rules. PLE used colour searchlight signalling mounted on cantilevers, NS would still use ex PRR position light signalling, like on the HSC, in my copy. Just to have that visual difference. I would also change the switches into proper track-, medium or slow speed turnouts and reduce the signalling to a prototype minimum using interlocking scripts. The layout of most junctions isn't that complex and with a few carefully chosen track rules should run AI without problems I hope.

There are so many future possibillities with this route, what about adding the old B&O P&V Sub tracks along the Monongahela's right bank? Or Pittsburgh's downtown PRR station and connecting that with the B&O by way of the Schenley Park tunnel? One could even run a couple of PCC cars to and fro over the old PRR Mon-Con bridges Thomas faithfully included? If one is really bold one can add back the archetypical "US railroad gothic" P&WV/Wabash bridge and hideously ugly 5th Av. Wabash Terminal and connect these by means of the still present tunnel with the P&WV West Belt to give Pittsburgh a third passenger terminal. Adding back some of the blast furnaces and rolling mills would also be possible now we have those Dover and Massillon assets for needed variety.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby Hawk » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:00 pm

_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha wrote:I don't know the criteria for inclusion in the RWA library

Pretty simple really. See this topic for details.

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1358
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby harryadkins » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:13 pm

I like the P&LE! It has a lot of potential, but with all it's trackage, it can confuse scenario writers. I have two suggestions for using the P&LE. 1) There are several versions of the P&LE out there so let's all settle on one version. I suggest the one here in the RWA library. 2) It would be great to have some simple schematic diagrams to identify the trackage. I used track diagrams alot in MSTS and they really help.

Thanks to Thomas for his work.

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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:35 pm

Route maps are the responsibility of the author.

Here is some helpful prototype information, you'll find that Thomas' reproduction of the P&LE is faily accurate.
http://railsandtrails.com/Maps/P&LE-1960/index.htm
and
http://www.multimodalways.org/archives/ ... /P&LE.html
'where you can also find lots of useful information.
Dont forget to check the H.A.E.R. archives I mentioned in another thread for lots of technical and architectural photos and drawings.
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/hh/, from this collection comes
Image
Does this look like Gringott's Bank? No it is Pittsburgh's Wabash Terminal, once considered the most handsome building in town. !*don-know!*

On some other boards and fora one can find pictures, videos and lots of reading material on P&LE present and past. It is still very much alive and kicking, and there is a huge amount of information just waiting to be discoverd if you go and look for it.
And then there are the historical society websites one can browse, inquire or purchase material from. A complete, authentic set of track charts is available from an online vendor even, albeit for a pricely sum.

Problem for Thomas and us is that NS and CSX are fierce competitors and the timeframe Thomas has modelled is not clearly defined. His route is an interpretation/approximation based on his personal experience living in Aliquippa and from railfanning the area. The track layout seems pretty current, however some of the included industries that have vanished long ago are still in the layout, Carrie Furnace and the Hot Metal Bridge etc, but one wouldn't want to miss those iconic industries, would we? One has to make compromises, both in building and playing the route. Still, I think it is amongst the best of routes and can be made close to perfect by some service updates to iron out its most obvious flaws.

Thomas has not given it up and over yet! It all depends on what you want with it, sightseeing runs or prototype operation place different demands on the route.
But that is only my opinion, perhaps over time the user's collective will come to a common conclusion and can provide guidance and direction in improving it?
Last edited by _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha on Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby glenn68 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:03 pm

I have all the necessessary locomotives and rolling stock.
I have been experimenting on standard scenario creation with the DEC 2011 version of the P&LE but mainly on the P&LE's Monongahela line.
Right now I am slowly writing a scenario for the Montour railroad.

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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby buzz456 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:32 pm

Worked like a champ! *!greengrin!* !!*ok*!!
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby glenn68 » Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:48 pm

_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha,
I agree in you comments, There was never a set timeframe. I pointed out that the old PRR Panhandle bridge was connected to the PAT tunnel(which is used by the "T" or subway). That happened in the 1980's but yet there is yard at the southside at station square. The old station square freight terminal was shut down in the 1960's. Going down on the P&LE "MON" line in Monessen the old Wheeling-Pittsburgh Steel mill still existed untill the 1980's to include the Coke Works. The mill was rased but the Coke works was saved and was operated by Koppers. MESTA Machine is also missing, which is also a big Icon of the Pittsburgh area. I would have liked if the time frame was set to the 1970's to the mid 1980's for good realistic operation. Yes I also agree. There is tons of good information on the P&LE and there is a Yahoo Group dedicated to the history of the P&LE.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:03 am

What keeps you, Glenn? Make a copy and change it to your heart's desire.

If you have Ohio Steel/Dover & Massillon you have a source of nice "heavy metal" industries to occupy those vacated spaces. If you want to do just the P&LE and add back all the track since removed, it might be best to delete/cut off the whole of Ohio River right bank part, where Conway Yard etc. lies. Saves a huge lot of assets and are of no importance to operating the P&LE proper. The O.C.R.R. bridge can still be used to stage PRR/PC/CR/NS runs over the "Mon" high line. Locals can still be run from the "Mon" by the PC&Y into McKees Rocks yard.
Same goes for the proposed by me earlier PRR/B&O on the right bank of the Monongahela, that lot of track and assets only adds weight to an already strained TS2012 under the present circumstances.

I am unsure about the line north of Beaver to Youngstown, you can try yourself or wait until Thomas' unfolds his plans to add another 50 miles or so. It will require yet again lots of steel industry assets and Gateway Yard. It would be nice to be able to run the whole of P&LE but essentially it replicates and adds more of the same industries and traffic patterns.

Montour Railroad is already available. I am just reading the Wikipedia entry to learn that Montour has been closed and liquidated/abandonded in the 1990's.

Don't have much to say yet about the lines south of McKeesport, haven't yet explored them thoroughly. There is some street running, which Thomas has modelled very nice indeed, with all those people about on the strees, in their porches watching and waving etc. It all looks very well done to me and I have collected quite some screenshots over the last couple of installments of the P&LE.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby harryadkins » Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:55 am

I ran the first of your two scenarios last night with no problems. There were occasional "hiccups" to allow the screens to load, but nothing out of the ordinary.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:40 pm

Yes, I noticed that too. Some tiles have close to 3000 assets, probably including all that foilage but still excluding rolling stock. With around 500 pieces on the move, the program is bound to stutter. It is the price you pay for beauty in TS2012 and little can be done about it until the game's engine is completely rewritten with better memory management and 64 bits architecture.

How were fps and what was the running time measured against a real clock in the larger McKeesport to Aliquippa scenario?
These depend on system specs, so here are mine. I have swapped the track for ScaleRail HD, pink/brown ballast looks nicer than the default Mainline Light, but probably adds some system load. I use the enhanced engines from RWA.com and have the projecting headligths on, also adding some system load.
With my quad core 4 GHz AMD bullbozer and 1 GHz 6970 Lightning card fps are hovering round the 12 mark. Occasionally they drop down to 6, the AI starts to act jumpy, getting "elastic" and takes a while to recover. I use SSAA 2x2 plus Anistropic x 8 in the startup screen and High settings with bloom and depth of field turned on in the program screen. I like that smooth and natural, slightly hazy/fuzzy look of early morning/late afternoon. Both CPU and GPU are hardly loaded above 50%.
Depending on my driving skills it usually takes around 90 real minutes to make the run, while the status report lists less than 70 minutes.

Haven't yet tried to run at night to see how the lighting is and what their effects are on fps and completion time.

Oh well, the many flaws of TS2012 ... !*hp*!
Last edited by _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha on Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby artimrj » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:56 pm

The time period is about 20-25 years ago. The mill in Alliquippa has been gone for 20-25 years now. The stations is Beaver and Monaca are tourist centers now. i live in Beaver.
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:32 pm

Thanks, Bob. You are right, for the route is named P&LE, not CSX Pittsburgh Sub or something like that.

Beaver, right? There once was a nice and handsome station, and that Ohio river bridge is an engineering landmark as well.
.. can't find that nice b/w photo of the P&LE 2-8-4 passing through Beaver right now ...
Image
Image

Was the track layout already this "rationalised" during the last years of the independent P&LE?
Stretches of single track mainline add a challenge but make writing scenarios a PITA, because the inbuilt "dispatcher" is kind of flaky when it comes to train priority and right-of-way in general. I was trying for some first come, first served passages through J&L Tunnel and the other bottlenecks but didn't quite manage it.
Perhaps some other time, for I want to keep this route and write for it.

How is CSX running the P&LE nowadays? From what I read overhere, it is a pretty busy railroad.
http://www.trainweb.org/eastrial/ple_p1_1.html
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Re: P&LE scenario for testing purposes

Unread postby TDHenderson » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:41 pm

_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha wrote:The omnipresent octogenarian from the other board


Now I need a new keyboard and a refill of coffee.
!*roll-laugh*!
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