Completely Incorrect throttle/amperage modelling

[OldProf]

To my way of thinking, there's a lot of difference between a simulator and a replicator. TSW aims to be the former and, in my opinion, does it quite well.

[sd40Driver]

@ peterhayes: When you ask people if they enjoy working for the railroad, they either tell you they love it or they hate it. I love it. It often takes you away from your family for long periods of time, especially in the beginning (depending on various factors), and for me that's the hardest part. As for training, many people dont realize it, but you cannot apply to become a locomotive engineer. Railroads don't hire engineers. Every engineer is someone who's worked their way up through the system, often from a MOW hand, switchman, brakeman, to a conductor. Pay is good right out of the gate, depending on union agreements and the location you're based out of. Initial training consists of a 14 week program for most places, where you learn theory in the classroom, and then field training actually working with the equipment. And yes, there is recurrent training which everyone has to go through and pass, including simulator training. There is also continuous new training for existing trainmen, like getting qualified on new routes (learning signals, grades, unique train handling, etc). It keeps a guy (or gal) busy.

@ OldProf: I do agree that compared to the "simulators" that have been available in the past, Train Sim World does the best job of simulating the environment, but I would disagree about the operations/driving of a train. Perhaps we would agree that Train Sim World is the overall best "railfan simulator"? Standing trackside and watching trains roll by (aside from the sounds) is pretty convincing. And Dovetail Games has a seemingly solid platform to make it the best operation/driving simulator out there. Considering they got the throttle/load meter behavior (more) correct in their previous sims, it's confusing to understand how they got it so wrong in this one. And a little on terminology so we're on the same page, I have been speaking from an industry perspective, where there is no such term as a "replicator", only a "simulator." I guess you could equate your terms of "Replicator and Simulator" to my terms of "Simulator and Game".

Another issue I just noticed is that the targets on the switch stands often look to be set one way (red or diverging) from a distance, and as you get closer they flip to the opposite indication. This is extremely worrying. Several times I've big holed my train only to watch the switch target change to the expected indication. This makes for very nervous driving. Engineers need to be able to rely 100% on the indications of the signals and switch stand targets even at a distance.

Also, for those interested this is a great summary about how train brakes work: http://www.railway-technical.com/brake2 ... tiveBrakes

James

[cbff33]

So what do people expect from a 30 something dollar simulator. If you want all the bells and whistles then you might have to spend a few million dollars. Yes I use to fly real aircraft and none of the PC based FS have physics etc like the real thing either. I never ever complained about it and took it for granted what I was able to fly in a FS which I wouldn't have the chance to do for real. I think that we should be thankful for what we have got and able to run on our thousand dollar PCs.

I remember watching a Formula 1 race one day and the commentator asked David Coulthard (Ex F1 driver) who asked him a question about something, which I cannot remember but, part of the question was, how do you compare this to a simulator which he replied, look you cannot compare the real thing with a simulator.

If open rails can get relatively decent physics, why can't DTG? DTG has never given a poopoo about proper physics. They are brits, trying to model American diesel electric physics, using manuals the found on ebay. Between TS20XX and TSW, they are banking on the common end user not knowing the difference in how an american loco behaves. Who cares if it can go from 60mph to 0mhp almost as fast as a 2017 zl1 camaro. The common user doesn't know the first thing about amperage and how it's supposed to behave and look on the gauge. Green is good. Go with it. I also clearly remember when they were touting the amazing new simugraph, that someone at DTG commented somewhere that they had a realworld, sd40-2 operator, try the TSW sd40-2, and that this "experienced" sd40-2 operator, called simugraph a success, and that the sd40-2 in TSW was as close as you could get to the real thing. That all turned out to be a load of over the pond manure for sure.

Many of us are US citizens, many of us see trains daily in different parts of the country. So it's easy to see, how far off the TSW and TS20xx physics are. And I don't think it's asking too much to get that right. again someone says what do you expect for a 30 dollar sim in a 1000 dollar computer. My answer, I expect better than what was delivered. I expect what was promised. If the guys at Open Rails can find a way to code basic physics, and get it close, on a freeware platform, than the guys raking in the bucks, should be able to do better.

It's more than obvious, that what was advertised, was not what was delivered. And you got a RW loco engineer calling them out. I am glad he did, and I hope he posts exactly what he posted here on the TSW tech support at Steam, and also the DTG forum.

[GERUNIMO625]

Howdy,

Another issue I just noticed is that the targets on the switch stands often look to be set one way (red or diverging) from a distance, and as you get closer they flip to the opposite indication. This is extremely worrying. Several times I've big holed my train only to watch the switch target change to the expected indication. This makes for very nervous driving. Engineers need to be able to rely 100% on the indications of the signals and switch stand targets even at a distance.

I was thinking, along the same vein of realism. Multiplayer will make situations like this more fun. Now if the lineup is bad you can wake the conductor up, kick him/her out, mutter something about "its always 70 degrees and sunny in here", take a nap, and wait for them to call you ahead
If thats not 100% realism, I don't know what is.

Joking aside, a lot of old heads I've worked with (CNW guys) all say the same thing. 'Never trust a target'. If it means you've got to creep through a yard, so be it. Open your pockets!
One of the yards I work at, targets spin on the stand, one target indicates straight when its actually lined for the lead, messes up new and unfamiliar engineers constantly.
Personally, I don't mind walking the lineup, gives me something to do. Maybe I'll see you in a multiplayer session someday. Don't worry I wouldn't dream of shoving you through a wrong-way switch!


Take care.

[ErikGorbiHamilton]

This was a response i made on YouTube 3 years ago in 2014:

" 'even in single player it will seem as if you're actually in the cab, driving the real deal!'
BIG statement there. In my honest opinion, no train simulator will ever get 'The Real Deal'.
Running a train is a whole 'nother breed. If you wanted to run a train the MOST REALISTICALLY, You would have to either buy RUN-8 (The most realistic at the time of writing (10/17/14)) Or you get a engineer job with the railroad.


Anyways, That's my opinion."

[sd40Driver]

Howdy,

Joking aside, a lot of old heads I've worked with (CNW guys) all say the same thing. 'Never trust a target'. If it means you've got to creep through a yard, so be it. Open your pockets!
One of the yards I work at, targets spin on the stand, one target indicates straight when its actually lined for the lead, messes up new and unfamiliar engineers constantly.
Personally, I don't mind walking the lineup, gives me something to do. Maybe I'll see you in a multiplayer session someday. Don't worry I wouldn't dream of shoving you through a wrong-way switch!


Take care.

I guess I see Train Sim World as being "without broken things". Meaning, failures are not simulated. Locomotive failures, broken track, switch targets, etc. are all without the ability to be in a failed/damaged state. It would definitely add realism to allow realistic failures in the future. One of the yards I frequent also has a backward target (actually welded on the stand backward - that's why it's not been fixed...must be "too much work"). I wonder if we work the same yard?? I guess I should have said "Engineers should be able to trust their switch targets...they should always be correct for a simulator of this level. But, in real life, you couldnt be more correct! I walk way more than I need to most of the time, and so does my conductor. But it saves this crew from putting cars on the ground most of the time. A little side note, I've also actually witnessed vandals spray painting the targets reverse colors on a 40 mph high target siding switch off the main. Called it in and it was fixed before the paint dried. Can you imagine what might have happened? Walking the train also helps you find broken straps, shifted cargo, leaking axle bearings, etc that you otherwise might not find. If this sim ever gets to a multiplayer level, it would be a blast to connect with you and switch a few cars around. Just please, no switch-splitting shenanigans.

James

[GERUNIMO625]

Yah know, I don't think I've ever seen people vandalize railroad equipment in such a was as to maliciously (maybe unintentionally) derail trains or hurt people.
Tag cars, sure. Shoot out signals, sure. But never spray switch stands the wrong indication! That's messed up!

Only thing I can think of that blew my mind was a e-mail we got about a homemade AEI reader someone had built and installed on the right of way, I believe on NS trackage out east. According to the email we got from our company the FBI figured they were attempting to monitor cars with hazardous chemicals in them. To what end, I don't know. But, I'm sure their intentions were nefarious.

Eitherway, good reason to know your territory and pay attention!

Take care

P.S. I've also heard, but never seen, stories of groups of people going into containers and taking flat screens and other electronics as a train is leaving the yard (waiting for a light to leave). Some of these stack trains are 120 cars long or more, and double stacked. So out of a possible 240 containers they know exactly which one to go to and empty? Sounds like an inside job if ever there was one. But who knows, its all shanty talk. To combat that they string up razor wire and railroad police patrol the area. South side Chicago, gotta love it!

[Handbrake]

Perhaps those flat screen TV's are classed as 'collectables'?

[JohnS]

Yah know, I don't think I've ever seen people vandalize railroad equipment in such a was as to maliciously (maybe unintentionally) derail trains or hurt people.
Tag cars, sure. Shoot out signals, sure. But never spray switch stands the wrong indication! That's messed up!

Only thing I can think of that blew my mind was a e-mail we got about a homemade AEI reader someone had built and installed on the right of way, I believe on NS trackage out east. According to the email we got from our company the FBI figured they were attempting to monitor cars with hazardous chemicals in them. To what end, I don't know. But, I'm sure their intentions were nefarious.

Eitherway, good reason to know your territory and pay attention!

Take care

P.S. I've also heard, but never seen, stories of groups of people going into containers and taking flat screens and other electronics as a train is leaving the yard (waiting for a light to leave). Some of these stack trains are 120 cars long or more, and double stacked. So out of a possible 240 containers they know exactly which one to go to and empty? Sounds like an inside job if ever there was one. But who knows, its all shanty talk. To combat that they string up razor wire and railroad police patrol the area. South side Chicago, gotta love it!

Oh man do I have some stories! I've been railroading for 13yrs now. I've worked short line freight in NJ and an engineer for NJT now G&W in Michigan. Look on google for "The Conrail Boyz" and look at what they did for years.

[buzz456]

Speaking of de-rails.....................

[ex-railwayman]

P.S. I've also heard, but never seen, stories of groups of people going into containers and taking flat screens and other electronics as a train is leaving the yard (waiting for a light to leave). Some of these stack trains are 120 cars long or more, and double stacked. So out of a possible 240 containers they know exactly which one to go to and empty? Sounds like an inside job if ever there was one. But who knows, its all shanty talk. To combat that they string up razor wire and railroad police patrol the area. South side Chicago, gotta love it!

I can't believe that the container doors can be opened, are they not padlocked and I thought they were wedged in tight when they sat in the well car, if you got the doors open it would only be a few inches? They obviously cannot gain entry to the double stacked container. Anyway, when I worked with containers, items such as electronics, tv's, etc, the product boxes were shrinkwrapped directly onto pallets and the pallets were wedged in so they wouldn't move much in transit, they would need a forklift truck to empty a 40ft/45ft/53ft container, which is impossible when it's in a wellcar 5 feet off the ground in a train yard. They might be able to pinch one, or, two items, but, they wouldn't have time, nor, the strength and energy to lift every item off its pallet, and if it is pitch dark, with just a little torch, you can't see what you're doing anyway, I've been inside containers in freight yards in the middle of the day right up to the bulkhead when it's full and it isn't easy to see what you're doing, try doing that at midnight!! And it's definately an inside job, one where someone can get hold of the train manifest and listings of the containers as to the sender, destination customer and description of goods, it's not difficult in this day and age of computerised technology, and folks looking the other way for the share of the profits, it can happen anywhere from the Ports to the Railyards, and even customer's staff themselves.
In Britain we had a general policy, when I worked in the 1970s and 80s, of turning nearly all the containers round when they were lifted by the cranes off the road trailers, the doors would be facing inwards when they sat on the flat wagons, whenever possible, so, there was absolutely no chance of anybody gaining entry to one whilst the train was in transit, as they too often stood idle in various train yards and Docks with nobody looking.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

[dr1980]

I'm not a rivet counter, plausible simulation is what I look for, but to me the issues raised by the OP aren't a matter of "it's a $30 sim what do you expect". The OP has laid out quite well how both the throttle and brakes in TSW are fundamentally wrong...those are both pretty important things in a train sim! The throttle issues in particular killed the immersion from me (I've experienced the mentioned issues of having to constantly switch between run 4 and 5 to maintain a the same constant speed despite the grades changing, very annoying).

All in all, I'm glad companies like DTG are making games like TSW, as rail fans we should all appreciate that. But if the long term vision is for TSW to be a sim (as marketed), it needs to stop being a game without regard for basics like throttle and braking mechanics, I really hope that happens as there is great potential here.

[dejoh]

Ex-Railwayman. Welcome to the real world. Here in Chicago, crooks can crack a back door of a 53ft. trailer at a stop light, pass goods back to their buddy's, disappear from sight, without the driver ever knowing what happened. Eventually the driver notices his back doors swinging in the wind as he drives down the Dan Ryan Expressway. (major hi-way in Chicago). One good thing is when crooks get caught hitting containers,and they do quite often, its a Federal offense meaning lots of jail time.

[ex-railwayman]

Ex-Railwayman. Welcome to the real world. Here in Chicago, crooks can crack a back door of a 53ft. trailer at a stop light, pass goods back to their buddy's, disappear from sight, without the driver ever knowing what happened. Eventually the driver notices his back doors swinging in the wind as he drives down the Dan Ryan Expressway. (major hi-way in Chicago). One good thing is when crooks get caught hitting containers,and they do quite often, its a Federal offense meaning lots of jail time.

I'm not surprised at all, many boxvan trailers and containers don't have a padlock, or, customs seal, on the doors these days and are an open invitation. In the 1970s and 80s we used to transport a lot of domestic traffic of beer from the various national breweries in Scotland and Newcastle and other regional centres around Britain, that went all over the UK, the flat containers had kegs, and bottles and cans of beer and lager in crates and box packs of 24 tins, all on pallets, which they used to cover the loads with sheets and tarpaulins, all roped down, when the containers used to leave the container terminals they would get as far as the first set of traffic lights and be jumped on by gangs who used box cutter knives to slice through the sheets and start helping themselves to the boxes and crates in about the 2 minutes that the truck was standing idle for. One road driver I spoke to from Liverpool had set off to deliver a load of Guinness bottles and tins and they stole that much in 2 minutes they made the rest of his load unstable, and when he drove off round the corner he tipped the trailer right over and 16 tons of beer went all over the road, he blocked the road for 5 hours into the Port of Liverpool, the Police had to put a cordon round the vehicle to stop the hundreds of locals who all ran down the street from making off with all the tins and bottles that hadn't smashed, and for over 15 years he was never allowed to forget it, what we used to call 'happy days'.

Cheerz. ex.

[GERUNIMO625]

Poor Buzz and dr1980, tried to get us back on topic.

I take full responsibility, its in my nature it seems, to clamp derails to every conversation I happen upon. Sorry!

Ex-railwayman, I had to chuckle to myself when you related your story about the beer, thats funny stuff!
I hope they did prison time for causing a massive beer spill, crime against helpless beer!! That should be punishable by death.

Also, to my knowledge the containers on our well cars are certainly capable of being opened. The container on top can easily have both doors opened wide, the container on the bottom, in the well can only have its doors opened maybe about 45 degrees because the car body gets in the way. So if you open one door, you can certainly get in there. I've seen 'Z' Trains (express freight trains) which often carry FedEx trailers and other priority containers flying along doing 70mph with container doors swinging in the breeze. We let the crew know of course, but there is usually little they can do until they reach their crew change point, maybe another 100 miles away.

The only trains I've personally had where the railroad police take an interest is containers trains holding old money due to be destroyed. In those cases you'll see railroad police following your train from grade crossing to grade crossing. At which point, I raise and eyebrow, and I flip through the manifest (or locally we call it a 'wheel') and you see a container with "Earth" in it. Well as you probably know "earth" is not a common word us Yanks use, we call it 'dirt'. More importantly why would dirt/earth be in a container? Ah, funny stuff.

Also, Dejoh makes a good point. These 'gangs' we all hear about are far from a bunch of street hoodlums we all imagine. They are very organized, and often have their fingers and money in our local governments. So for them to orchestrate alittle train robbery is far from impossible. Also the railroads give them ample time, these trains can sit waiting to leave a yard sometimes for hours.

Anyway, very interesting/funny stuff, even if horribly off topic.