Update on the steamers

[jalsina]

Most of the contemporary 2-8-4 & 4-8-4 designs with the Berk could not make road speeds beyond 55 mph or so.
A 100 mph speed is a little out of that envelope.
While I have had always trouble to get the K4 uphill Altoona to Gallitzin with a medium consist, it has not been the case with the Berkshire (with your physics update installed).
All depends of what is being pulled in that grade.

[dtrainBNSF1]

Most of the contemporary 2-8-4 & 4-8-4 designs with the Berk could not make road speeds beyond 55 mph or so.
A 100 mph speed is a little out of that envelope.

I beg to differ. The letter I received from the C&O society and my communication with the FWRHS show that Berks were quite capable of high speed operation. That was the whole point of Lima's Superpower Initiative - horsepower at speed. The K4, for example, was used on heavy passenger trains and while not allowed to travel too fast because of C&O special rules and regulations they did hit and sustain 70 mph in passenger service, and to have the very volunteers who maintain the 765 say that these locos on a semi regular basis could top 90mph and that 765 has been pretty close to that since restoration tells me that a 100mph top speed shouldn't be too unlikely. My test train over Horseshoe Curve weighs 1150-tons, the same tonnage that NKP 759 took over the hill unassisted despite Penn Central officials claiming that it couldn't be done (so much so that they even put money on it - and lost when 759 made it all the way and didn't even stall ) On previous runs with previous mods the loco stalled in front of the tunnel. It wasn't until after I set up the loco for 100 mph operation that I finally made it through the tunnel and could finally replicate 759's feat.

Now I'm not expecting to take a really heavy train up to 90mph on an incline - even on the flats. Those high speeds (like 90mph) more than likely were achieved with a light high-priority train in favorable conditions - but they DID IT.

[mrennie]

And of course there's another well-known 4-8-4 built by ALCO that was designed to run safely at 120mph (and often did, unofficially, to make up time when they were behind schedule with fast freight trains).

[dtrainBNSF1]

And of course there's another well-known 4-8-4 built by ALCO that was designed to run safely at 120mph (and often did, unofficially, to make up time when they were behind schedule with fast freight trains).

And I might add the crew that maintains that particular 4-8-4 is still unsure just how fast she really can go (last I checked anyway)

[jalsina]

My information comes from the book "Perfecting the American Steam Locomotive" plus what I am about to expose here:
The speed info (55 mph) comes from a tractive effort vs speed set of curves, where not even a 2-8-4 graphic is included but 4-8-4, 2-8-2 and 2-8-0. The text doesn´t mention at all the Berk´s speed not even one figure, but mentions other Lima and Alco contemporary models like the A1 (pre-Berk) and the J2, some of those with only 63" or 66" drivers instead of 69" (70" Erie).

I think that this data about 100 or 110 mph may have been a punctual record speed in flat terrain in an isolated situation. But I could be wrong.
Wikipedia mentions 70 mph max speed for the 765.

Another point I wish to discuss is the simulation variable MaxSpeed in TS2016. No matter what the loco is pulling, that will be the maximum value that it will be allowed to travel. Either a Light Engine or a consist with 20 cars it will never pass this value (or a +1 +2%). Then that is not a real locomotive maximum speed but a not to be trespassed speed by the simulator.

The Berkshire consist I mentioned before, going uphill from Altoona station to Gallitzin has a mass of 1183 tons with 16 cars. I really did not have problems going up the hill (twice), other than requiring the usage of low speeds in the steepest parts of the route (1.8%-2.4%). The K4 with much less weight is another story. The Pacific can stall very easily.
The capability of the Berkshire in level tracks was more than double this mass and there are stories oof only one Berk pulling 40-45 cars.

[dtrainBNSF1]

My information comes from the book "Perfecting the American Steam Locomotive" plus what I am about to expose here:
The speed info (55 mph) comes from a tractive effort vs speed set of curves, where not even a 2-8-4 graphic is included but 4-8-4, 2-8-2 and 2-8-0. The text doesn´t mention at all the Berk´s speed not even one figure, but mentions other Lima and Alco contemporary models like the A1 (pre-Berk) and the J2, some of those with only 63" or 66" drivers instead of 69" (70" Erie).

I think that this data about 100 or 110 mph may have been a punctual record speed in flat terrain in an isolated situation. But I could be wrong.
Wikipedia mentions 70 mph max speed for the 765.

Another point I wish to discuss is the simulation variable MaxSpeed in TS2016. No matter what the loco is pulling, that will be the maximum value that it will be allowed to travel. Either a Light Engine or a consist with 20 cars it will never pass this value (or a +1 +2%). Then that is not a real locomotive maximum speed but a not to be trespassed speed by the simulator.

The Berkshire consist I mentioned before, going uphill from Altoona station to Gallitzin has a mass of 1183 tons with 16 cars. I really did not have problems going up the hill (twice), other than requiring the usage of low speeds in the steepest parts of the route (1.8%-2.4%). The K4 with much less weight is another story. The Pacific can stall very easily.
The capability of the Berkshire in level tracks was more than double this mass and there are stories oof only one Berk pulling 40-45 cars.

I addressed why wikipedia or other sources mention that berks had a top speed of 70mph when I said this (also I view wikipedia as a last resort because it is not a scholarly source - anyone can just go in there and put in whatever):

Most sources will tell you that berkshires had a top speed of 70mph due to a rule of thumb that a steam locomotive's top speed can be estimated as 1 or 1.1 x driver diameter (in inches). However this rule does not do the NKP berks justice (or any locomotive from the Super Power era in fact) due to improvements to the valve gear, better lubricants, etc. The FWRHS informed me that back in the day the NKP berks topped 90 on a semi-regular basis and that they themselves had had 765 pretty close to that before, but not in recent history.

Also (I'll admit it) the last berkshire upgrade had too much tractive effort, so your experience with the modified berkshire on Horseshoe Curve is a bit skewed and is why you had no problems. I over powered it for the sake of getting a 1150-ton train over Horseshoe Curve. This next mod puts the tractive effort back down to its prototypical value.

And yes I know that the sim's max speed is a "do not exceed this speed" limitation . I've been at this long enough to know that. That's why finding the loco's terminal velocity/absolute top speed is critical (that's why my Big Boy's set for 80mph - that is the maximum speed it is capable of achieving and it was specifically built that way so that ALCO could justify implementing safety measures to ensure that the loco didn't knock itself to bits in operation).

As far as isolated events, what does "semi-regular basis" mean to you? For me it signals that it wasn't as uncommon as maybe once or twice, but it wasn't like it was happening every other day. It happened just enough to make it worth noting for historians.

My information comes from the book "Perfecting the American Steam Locomotive" plus what I am about to expose here:
The speed info (55 mph) comes from a tractive effort vs speed set of curves, where not even a 2-8-4 graphic is included but 4-8-4, 2-8-2 and 2-8-0. The text doesn´t mention at all the Berk´s speed not even one figure, but mentions other Lima and Alco contemporary models like the A1 (pre-Berk) and the J2, some of those with only 63" or 66" drivers instead of 69" (70" Erie).

Don't forget where my info comes from - a society dedicated to preserving the history of the C&O with full access to all records of said railroad and the current operator of a berkshire. I won't argue with them.

For loco's that commonly hit or exceeded 100mph, look at Wilwaukee Road's Hiawathas. Those suckers exceeded 100mph on a daily basis (true they were light trains, but it proves the concept). A 4-4-2 could do it, a 4-6-4 could do it, and NYC's J-class 4-6-4 was known to exceed 100mph with the 20th Century Limited and Empire State Express on a regular basis.

[Bananarama]

look at Wilwaukee Road's Hiawathas

Was Wilwaukee Road Dusty's younger brother?

[dtrainBNSF1]

look at Wilwaukee Road's Hiawathas

Was Wilwaukee Road Dusty's younger brother?

Whoops! Spelling error

[jalsina]

DtrainBNSF1
No intention to be offensive with the information I posted.
I have also been in simulators for more than 10 years including fully modelling 3 steam locomotives in MSTS.
The only I can add is to thank you for putting your effort in these mods and I look forward to your next release.

[dtrainBNSF1]

DtrainBNSF1
No intention to be offensive with the information I posted.
I have also been in simulators for more than 10 years including fully modelling 3 steam locomotives in MSTS.
The only I can add is to thank you for putting your effort in these mods and I look forward to your next release.

Sure thing. Sorry for implying the offense. I was just trying to defend my position. I've been in train simulation since 2001 when MSTS was released, played 3 different simulators, and despite all the time I've been in this hobby this is the first time I've actually contributed something to the community. To tell you the truth, like I mentioned to dimovski a while back, all these mods are pretty much WIPs because it seems like after I release one mod I suddenly learn something new about the loco for which I just released the mod that I totally could have included in the mod.

When was the book you quoted from written? And did it have a particular railroad in mind when it was written? I'm guessing by the designs mentioned (4-8-4, 4-6-4 especially) that the concept of Superpower had been introduced because that's the reason 4-wheel trailing trucks were developed (to my understanding).

What locomotives did you model for MSTS? I'm going to venture a guess by your picture that they're all European.

[mrennie]

I've got that book too - it's another of my "bibles" and is by J. Parker Lamb, published in 2003. You can buy it on Amazon. I highly recommend it.

[jalsina]

....... I've been in train simulation since 2001 when MSTS was released, played 3 different simulators, and despite all the time I've been in this hobby this is the first time I've actually contributed something to the community. To tell you the truth, like I mentioned to dimovski a while back, all these mods are pretty much WIPs because it seems like after I release one mod I suddenly learn something new about the loco for which I just released the mod that I totally could have included in the mod.

When was the book you quoted from written? And did it have a particular railroad in mind when it was written? I'm guessing by the designs mentioned (4-8-4, 4-6-4 especially) that the concept of Superpower had been introduced because that's the reason 4-wheel trailing trucks were developed (to my understanding).

What locomotives did you model for MSTS? I'm going to venture a guess by your picture that they're all European.

You guessed well. My avatar is one of the models. It is an Spanish 4-8-0 designated there as 240 Mastodont and it was one of the two most famous steamers along the 50s-70s Mikado. I had lots of published information to design the physics plus the help of a volunteer that worked in the Cumbres & Toltec (Bill Hobbs), who was on firing and driving and a couple of UK steam fans.
When I was a child I traveled in trains pulled by these two locomotives
The files were uploaded to trainsim.com and they are still there (by my very same name I use in RWA), besides of a couple of Spanish sites. You can see a few images of the 3 variants, plus a cab view, in my Steam profile Artwork:
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197994253033
I have also been In Trainz and Rail Simulator (TS 2016 grand-grand father) but never as passionate as I was in MSTS and nowadays in TS2016. I helped also to some fellow designers in other MSTS steam locomotives.
The book I mentioned is this one in Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Perfecting-Americ ... locomotive
It has been only published in 2003. It is pretty good and each chapter is the evolution of US steam locomotives with new technologies along the years.
Curiously enough (considering your comment above) is the fact that the chapter 7 (that has the mentioned graphics and that deals with the Berk), is named by the author:"Super Power Reigns"
It has lots of B&W pictures a few of them I had never seen. And it has a few graphics and calculation formulas, but it is not exactly a book for that.

I also have a jewel from 1953: "The Steam Locomotive in America" by Bruce, with lots of technical information and many schematics and pictures, some from locos that did not see much activity. However it deals with the NYC, Erie and Boston & Albany 4-8-2 rather than the NPK.

Again, I think the work you put on those steamers (and others as FanRailer, Buzz, Krellnut, etc) is much appreciated and definitively improve much how those DLC feel in the game.

[jalsina]

I've got that book too - it's another of my "bibles" and is by J. Parker Lamb, published in 2003. You can buy it on Amazon. I highly recommend it.

And this pocketbook is another steam locomotives bible from the other side of the pond:
http://www.amazon.com/Steam-Locomotives-Really-Popular-Science/dp/0198607822/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0G5YDF8A97YNHS7WDWRB&dpID=41OHWWyijTL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR103%2C160_

[dtrainBNSF1]

Neat! Never really got into trainz. No offense, but it just looked too toy-like for me to take seriously.

I know of some other books that you may be interested in. I haven't read them, but the member of the C&O Society who contacted me (Karen Parker) wrote these two books:

How a Steam Locomotive Works: http://www.amazon.com/Steam-Locomotive- ... 0939487896

Chesapeake & Ohio Allegheny 2-6-6-6: A Retrospective: http://www.chessieshop.com/index.php?ma ... ts_id=3175

[jalsina]

Thank you for the heads up about the book links.
The 1st book sound quite interesting but is a "price big leaguer" as the one by Bruce I mentioned above, though I got it used in a good deal.
Considering the size it must be something similar to Semmens and Goldfinch BR book.
I didn´t know about that bookstore of the Allegheny book.

About Trainz, I haven´t been much immersed in this TS, but I played with it for a while. Most of the best works built in MSTS were exported to Trainz. It has its pros and cons.