PTC Implementation

[up_8677]

Yeah, the move to digital communications (even for voice) will come. However, the sheer expense and difficulty of upgrading every single locomotive means that it won't come for a while. There is a free software package for monitoring ATCS (Advanced Train Control System) which already keeps track of train locations, signal indications, etc. Also, if you know the frequency, you can hear the data stream between DPUs and the lead unit.

Some other concerns about PTC include it's ability to safely control a really large freight train. Most anyone who knows anything about railroading knows that improper air brake use can lead to runaways (running out of air) or break in twos (sudden changes to in train forces).

[edit] I've done some reading, and apparently some GPS receivers are able to also use GLONASS for much improved accuracy. Many modern smartphones already do this.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Yeah, the move to digital communications (even for voice) will come. However, the sheer expense and difficulty of upgrading every single locomotive means that it won't come for a while. There is a free software package for monitoring ATCS (Advanced Train Control System) which already keeps track of train locations, signal indications, etc. Also, if you know the frequency, you can hear the data stream between DPUs and the lead unit.

Some other concerns about PTC include it's ability to safely control a really large freight train. Most anyone who knows anything about railroading knows that improper air brake use can lead to runaways (running out of air) or break in twos (sudden changes to in train forces).

From reading those locomotive engineer training coursebooks I have just found on the net, I conclude that trainhandling requires quite some "fingerspitzengefuhl", i.e. is quite delicate no matter how big and powerful your loco. The head end engineer is always responsible and so should be in full control of his/her train and any locomotives in the consist.
In my layman's thinking this means only the occupied lead locomotive should talk on the PTC while all m.u. and DPU should be muted.
Will there be telemetry readouts from all units and the EOTD send directly to the dispatchers' desk and Superintendent of Motive Power Disposition and Maintenance? This isn't Formula 1 where nowadays every bolt and nut is sensored and the only random factor left is the racing driver.

Does this PTC come with a dispatcher actuated remote "emergency - dump the air" switch when two blips on his screen are about to collide? I'll bet no engineer will like that.

Nationwide standardized PTC probably needs to be legally enforced by the DoT, so one can understand the RR's opposition if they think they don't need this PTC.

It will allow for some cost savings in the end, but I don't think it will greatly improve safety as there is still so much human error and hardware failure possible. How does one detect broken rail if the RR decides to do away with track circuits in the ABS and have the signals under PTC control? Perhaps lineside signals are obsolete alltogether?

Must read up on this, as there are also ongoing studies into a unified pan-European standardized train control system. Wonder who will gets their first, the EU or the AAR?

[up_8677]

Yes, good train handling is a very specialized skill, and I doubt that a computers that are of practical size for inclusion into a locomotive will be capable of making the real time decisions that a human engineer can make. Sure, PTC may be able to automagically plug a train if the fertilizer is about to hit the ventilator, so to speak. But it cannot replace the human element. At least not until we have Skynet.

[Rich_S]

The funny part is how far behind BNSF and the UP are when it comes to PTC (Leader) I don't have the exact number but at least half of the NS fleet already has PTC installed. Last time I checked 99% of all NS dash 9's had PTC along with the SD70M's and SD70M-2's. The majority of the new SD70Aces and ES44AC's came with PTC installed at the factory. NS is now installing PTC on the EVO fleet. Will PTC replace engineers, NO. Will PTC improve safety, maybe, because the system knows the tracks, curves and grades and the trains location via the GPS. When the engineer logs into leader, it knows the train. If you're heading down the track at 40 mph and you have a 30 mph curve ahead, LEADER knows at what point you should start slowing down. Same is true if you're full speed ahead approaching a stop signal. When the system is fully integrated, it will stop the train before you run the stop signal. There are multiple connections on the LEADER system, the GPS is only for location. LEADER also phones home using cell antennas and WI-FI antennas. And yes, PTC is a government mandate, big brother is making us install this stuff on locomotives.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

GPS positioning of locomotives can be good, the old ATI was meant for rolling stock, so PTC will probably not help with broken trains, unless the mandatory EOTD also talks on the PTC.
I think the dependance on reliable two-way ground communications will prove to be the Achilles' heel of this kind of positive train protection. Using civil networks which aren't under your control will make your train go blind in a blink. GSM reception isn't fail safe, nor has any carrier nationwide coverage in the US I think. WiFi is only good in built up areas and I don't think the railroads will want to invest in yet another nationwide coverage of themselves, AAR standard or not.
Besides, recent experiences have shown that a closed circuit digital communications system with TMF dialing proved literally fatal for firefighters and anti-terrorist units when they went in to do their jobs. Digital signals get maimed quickly in closed quarters when you're fully kitted up in helmet, gas mask/respirator etc. When you cannot hear your buddy protecting your back while having to work as a team is very discomforting and dangerous. The open communication channel of the old analogue system gave these crews a sense of security and they were so well trained as a unit that a few grunts in the micro were enough to understand each other.
LEADER is perhaps different, as there will be less vocal communication and more train orders to appear on the MFD, but train control and protection is a serious matter with all that hazardous cargo. Trains running on autopilot behind your back yard's fence, how will the 'nimby' respond. It takes already quite some getting used to from the crew.

Yesterday I was listening in on Lancaster, Ca. train radio repeater and a train go into trouble on the Mojave Sub because some error appeared on the MFD and the PCS cut in, forcing a controlled emergency the engineer couldn't recover from. A lenghty conversation between engineer and dispatcher followed, both trying to sort out the problem. The engineer was kind of goofy and the DI, a certain PCY, had to guide him it seemed. (PCY is such a cool fellow, friendly but authorative, and real good to listen to when it comes to radio procedure, useful like in Run 8). In the end, the engineer had to contact the Motive Power controller and together they started knocking down and resetting cirquit breakers "in the nose" and on "the back panel" until they found the culprit: the PTC. Engineers hate electronics and anything that cannot be fixed by a few whacks of a hammer it seemed, and that particlular one was quite vocal in his displeasure. Anyway, even the horn is behind a cirquit breaker these days, and the engineer had to ask for permission from DI to proceed without working horn, requiring all kinds of procedure and paperwork before proceeding at a crawl towards the nearest siding where the units could be swapped. Wish I had recorded it, would make for some hilarious cab audio.

This goes against any arguments that the more electronics is installed, the more secure the operation. On the contrary, the more sources of defects, delays and possible dangerous situations arise when electronics fail or the people don't undestand what all those messages mean. Plus the Big Brother watching over you anytime raises anxiety in most people, wether on the job or at leisure.

[Rich_S]

PTC is our government hard at work. This is a government mandate that all locomotives that can lead on the main line have PTC (LEADER) installed by 2015. The hilarious part is they system is still not fully functional, plus they still do not even have the software written for the LIG. The current thought is since UP is so far behind on the whole PTC program, they are going to ask for an extension and everyone else will follow suite.