New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby GreatNortherner » Wed May 18, 2022 11:01 am

Hi minerman,

The core of the issue is exactly what Gary has just said. The PC brand (and NH, NYC, PRR) is still owned by PC's successor company (you can find them on Wikipedia if you want to) and NS has nothing to do with that at all.
I'm crestfallen at this point, and I know it shows.

I entirely understand your pain and I can relate to it. Towards the beginning of my "modeling career" back in MSTS, I approached BNSF with request for a license. The lady I spoke to was very kind and helpful, but at the end of the conversation stood a plain "sorry, we can't license this brand (GN) to you at this time". And that was that. In the end it's the license owner who has full control here and if they refuse (or just don't respond), we're simply out of luck. And I for one am glad that DTG are playing fair and respect the license holders' decisions, even if we might not understand or like it.

And on another personal note: I do understand your dislike of the PC, but please let us have our toys anyway. You know how much I enjoy the Bergen Line and how I admire what you've done with it. But I also thoroughly enjoyed creating the PC Geeps and freight cars for the upcoming pack. It's a very (morbidly) fascinating chapter of American industrial history. And why shouldn't somebody have an interest to model it just because it was a dark time on the railroad(s)? Maybe it's a bit like playing war games on one's computer. *!twisted!*

Cheers,
Michael
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby minerman146 » Wed May 18, 2022 11:39 am

GreatNortherner,

I know first hand you are a friend of the Bergen and the EL. And let me state unequivocally that I would not, ever, try to stop the development of PC DLC. That is not the way I operate. I hope that what I have said publicly has not caused an interruption to High Irons Work. I will say that part of my minerman persona is to beat up on the Penn Central - this is true. I would also say that I was raised to understand the rivalry between the New York Central, the Pennsylvania and the Erie. And it is also a true statement that I have chosen to keep that alive (because of unjust and immoral actions by the PC against the EL directly). My assertions can all be fact checked. While the previous is true - this is not what I have promoted here on the Bergen. I promoted route building, an appreciation for the world DTG enabled me to create, and all those that have helped the route (like yourself) and of course my undying commitment to tell of the legacy of the Erie Lackawanna Railroad and what it means to me. I have hit every single high point I could.

All I want now is to know is that it's over and that there will be no EL DLC, for whatever reason, preferably in writing.
Then I can say I did everything I could to preserve this precious legacy.

And the next thing I want to know is why no one calls me - Im a wicked route builder! ( or so I have been told) *!greengrin!*

Carry on!
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby alanch » Wed May 18, 2022 1:40 pm

I don't know if this helps, but . . .

Many UK developers sell unbranded models, in correct liveries, and then have free downloads of branding patches without permission from the licence holder. I'm not aware of any developer receiving 'cease and desist notices', or ending up in court for this. This may just be a UK thing, but it might be worth thinking about if you really want to bring the Erie back.

Of course, that would involve ditching Steam for sales of the rolling stock and for Workshop scenarios, but there are plenty of other outlets.
Alan


My railway photos are back - you can access them from this thread viewtopic.php?f=24&t=21667a . Lots of UK steam and early diesels from the late 1950s and early 1960s.
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby minerman146 » Wed May 18, 2022 2:06 pm

alanch - totally fine idea. As the final plea to DTG plays out, what you describe, will be what happens if we get a denial.
Denial is strong at the moment.
*!sad!*
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby minerman146 » Wed May 18, 2022 5:00 pm

Apparently some has wished for me that "may the odds ever be in your favor"
Something.IS.Happening.

I never ever directly quote my contacts, but in this case and at this late juncture I am doing it. And remember, this is for the EL-NJDOT and unbranded silver nosed U34CH, I just got this message at 434pm EST today:

I'm trying to get the model released. Hope that last message you sent helps to calm the waters.[/i]

I know what the first message means. The second, well, I think I have been pushing my luck to be frank. I don't know if I have calmed anything.

Oh geez I forgot to tell you guys that yesterday I also did a dump on the Dovetail Live Announcement Page here: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/thread ... ost-486768 What I said, in essence (the post was deleted) Was that How could your do this, DTM has been waiting 2 years for a response for the EL-NJDOT U34CH, PC is the Death Star, (heh, I did actually call it that), and so on. This morning my post was deleted and the following message was posted by DTG JD:

[i]Minerman146 I've asked the team to follow up privately with you around your email. Partners have the opportunity to create content on what they choose. Given your comments don't directly relate to the pack mentioned in the thread title, I've removed the post, as the conversation is better held one-to-one with a member of our Third-Party team.


This is why, I suspect that DTM got a response to his email by "S" at DTG, unexpectedly, this morning. So, whatever the heck I said over at Dovetail Games and here got pushed up the flagpole. So at this point, I should probably shut my pie-hole and see how this plays out. So, for fun, lets do a status report:

Likelihood of a release of the EL NJDOT U34CH:
( ) Not Possible
( ) Possible
( X ) Likely

Approval of EL DLC
( ) Not Possible
( X ) Possible
( ) Likely

I have never been this bold. Please dont let me come up short again!
But dang look at all this drama and suspense....cooooool! *!greengrin!*

Carry on.
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby AmericanSteam » Wed May 18, 2022 8:21 pm

'bout time. It must be nice to get your point across in such an eloquent yet persuasive manner. !*salute*!
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby minerman146 » Thu May 19, 2022 5:39 am

AmericanSteam wrote:'bout time. It must be nice to get your point across in such an eloquent yet persuasive manner. !*salute*!


Next time I'll just pickup the phone and go Karen on them. What have I written, 10,000, words on "waiting for EL approval for the U34CH"?

Let me tell you, when you see this beautiful Blue Bird U34C H,the cab car and coaches you will appreciate that it just might be DTMs best work.

Will we get other EL approved DLC to run on the Morristown Line and here on the Bergen? I don't know for sure. Maybe just maybe this will finally happen....and then I can finally "go the distance and ease his pain".

Carry on.
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby buzz456 » Sun May 22, 2022 4:11 pm

Coming soon.
Screenshot_ A Peace River_56.23863--117.29059_08-30-56.jpg
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby AmericanSteam » Sun May 22, 2022 4:23 pm

Eerily Erie. Nice work. !!*ok*!!
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby minerman146 » Mon May 23, 2022 11:39 am

Way to go Buzz. Just what the doctor ordered!
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby minerman146 » Sun May 29, 2022 7:54 pm

Good evening. I thought it appropriate to provide and update on the U34CH by DTM. Where we left off last, there were tears in my beer over EL branded DLC and the 2 year hold up on the EL-NJDOT U34CH. Since, we last touched base, I find out that there was some internal confusion over at the mother ship regarding the original 3 unit pack that we had planned on doing. I think that was on our side when it was decided to release the NJT model. But confusion is confusion and this might be part of the reason for this monster delay. Since DTG has the EL-NJDOT, I asked DTM to go for the whole banana and get a blanket approval for EL going forward. I quote DTM here " That could be very interesting". Indeed. With that he continued and this I don't understand " the U34CH could be included in the Retro pack instead of the Marketplace". Don't know if this prohibits using EL in workshop scenarios, which, being in the workshop is very important to me. On that note, DTM started working on packing up the 2 livery's, which I will talk about shortly. I had also reminded him to make sure that both models got the updated horn and physics by Howard. Some days later I find out that he was asked to use all sounds and physics from the original NJT pack. The idea is that you need the NJT pack to make the EL pack work. Sounds like there might be a re-release with all three units. But this now presents a problem of losing all the work we did, with brakes, horn, throttle and weight. As I recall there was much unhappiness with the original horn loop. As you may recall, this prompted me to go and buy legit horn sounds. So know where we are is, and I hope this was communicated clearly, a request to apply the updated physics to the original NJT unit as well as the 2 additional units. I must say, that everything that could go wrong simply has gone wrong. I am hell-bent on shepherding this project to the very end. I have had enough disappointment.

Moving on, its time for a recap of what was the original 'vision' for the U34CH. There were 4 paint jobs for the U34CH in its life. 1. The original EL-NJDOT blue bird. 2. A NJT transition version, which ended up in similar coloring but with a sliver nose that had an NJT logo. 3. the NJT Disco version and lastly, 4. A one off Conrail Bicentennial Unit. That unit I opted to skip as is looks really bad.
Below are the original 3 liveries.

20220527210759_1.jpg

I never mentioned this but when we submitted all 3 to NJT 2 of them were rejected. You can see why. The original paint scheme was rejected as it was not keeping with thier image. Granted, there was not a lot of engine cleaning during the 80s, and they were aging, and frankly they looked beat. The coaches on the other hand held up nicely. As a side note the NJ logo for the "silvernose" and the NJDOT logos will be out there as a separate download.

20220527205700_1.jpg

Focusing now on the 2 new units there some nice details to point out. After EL left the picture and the nescient NJT came in to play, they refreshed the paint with the silvernose, the blue color was not matched and we reprinted that in the model. As well, the cab numbers have a different font on the sides and on the number boards. So all 3 units have three different fonts that were used. In addition, as I mentioned, the horns and physics were revamped to more closely resemble the electric hold and acceleration characteristics of the original unit. This was a royal PITA to do as it was my Dad who was doing the testing. Dad drove these units, and I have to say there were some moments or real excitement when he started recalling how the units were supposed to behave. I'm not kidding when I say, thanks to pop, we had 38 revisions! Suffice to say, we had a problem with the brake steps, and how wide they were. In the model these brake settings are hard coded in the original Big 7 model. So you will find the EH band to be almost impossible to drag your mouse over to hit the eclectic hold. However, the EH does work and you can maintain a constant brake application without loosing pipe pressure. Howards physics work (he also contributed to the brakes) really shine in this model, its got that heavy feel and it creeps off the line in notch 1. Lastly, I watched my father in testing handle the U34CH just like he did in real life hit the platforms from 60mph with 50 seconds to platform, lay down 20 pounds of application, then at 30 at the platform put another 10 to 15 down and then the unit stopped with engine just beyond the platform. Trying to replicate this yourselves is going to make this unit fun.

20220527210857_1.jpg

20220527210928_1.jpg

I haven't even gotten to the coaches yet, which are key to telling the story of the U34CH. With the NJT release you got both the hi and low door versions and modified version of the cab car controls. These controls have a table top mounted throttle. I had seen pictures of the Bombardier update to the cab and all they did was remove the control stand, put the throttle in and left everything else. It looked rough in real life and in our model. Because we didn't release the EL-NJDOT you didn't get the as purchased cab controls from 1971. Its actually the same setup as the stand in head unit. So the throttle moves left to right. The original cab we did was direct from the Pullman drawings and DTM nailed all the piping, conduit and wiring. There is also and cab light switch on the ceiling which we modeled and it works. So the cab car will be new to you and of course the original low door, EL-NJDOT coaches all with the correct numbering. I might be mistaken but the coaches have a different seating arrangement of 2 by 2 instead of 2 by 3. The NJT coaches we released were 2 by 3.

20220527211034_1.jpg

Overall the details that I focused on and that are in the unit are as follows. Correct bulkhead controls and gauges, control stand in the head and cab car, Sinclair antenna, Motran Motorola Radio and the HEP switch that you can only activate from the engine (no hot keys just like the real thing) and we covered the paint jobs. The coaches were custom built by DTM from the original plans he did a superb job - he even got the air tanks right at the bottom of the coaches, and we put in the lavatory though we didn't model the plumbing.

Good video that covers the history of U34CH and Dieseliner Coaches from a SEPTA vantage point:
https://youtu.be/h-OlztE2cFU
Video of the cab of the last U34CH - this is the unit we modeled the cab from:
https://youtu.be/YHkSLbHEMtI

I hope hope hope that this all gets released finally and you can see the effort that went in to try and get the U34CH and Pullman Standard Dieseline coaches right.
Carry on.
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby GeeDub » Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:30 pm

I just finished DKSspeed's excellent "To Ford!" scenario on this incredible route. This has become my #1 favorite route.

Thanks so much for this great contribution for us end users! Much appreciated. Well done!
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby Pwelt » Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:12 pm

Hello
Running U34 quick drive from Port Jervis (PJL) to Hoboken I get you have passed a signal at danger about 50 ft from start.

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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby AmericanSteam » Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:56 pm

GeeDub wrote:I just finished DKSspeed's excellent "To Ford!" scenario on this incredible route. This has become my #1 favorite route.

Thanks so much for this great contribution for us end users! Much appreciated. Well done!

Can you provide a link to this scenario?
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Re: New York Division-Bergen Line: Episode III, The Erie Rises

Unread postby Pwelt » Tue Jun 07, 2022 8:18 pm

It is a quick drive using the Bergen Route and the U34ch from Port Jarvis PJL and Hoboken.
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