The new EMD F125 passenger locomotive. I'm not a happy camper!

[GSkid]

The new EMD F125 passenger loco will be the world's first tier 4 locomotive sold in the world. ---- I"m happy

4,700Hp ---- I'm happy

20-cylinder---- I'm happy

Complies with "Buy America" requirements---= I'm happy

It's looks ---- Not exactly happy!

Being 4-stroke instead of 2-stroke------- REALLY UNHAPPY!


That last one is really why I was fearful when Caterpillar bought EMD. I love 2-strokes way more than 4-strokes. I fear they will get rid of the 2-strokes in their freight engines as well. I don't want to hear a world where 2-strokes are gone! I wasn't happy with the fact EMD went with the 4-stroke 265H engine in the SD90MAC. A sad day for me!



Here's the brochure with an artist's rendering and the specs!

http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/product ... v5RevE.pdf


CLEARLY aimed at AMTRAK and GE's Genesis locomotives. I'm speechless!

[arizonachris]

Nice wind resistant design, but those windows are just air catchers! Dumb. I wonder if they went 4 stroke to make it Tier 4 emissions?

[GSkid]

Nice wind resistant design, but those windows are just air catchers! Dumb. I wonder if they went 4 stroke to make it Tier 4 emissions?

I highly doubt it and I have a couple reasons to think this.....

1: As the emissions standards have increased over the decades, EMD engineers have always stepped up and met the challenge with it's 2-strokes. Now only a mere 3 years after being acquired by Caterpillar (maker of 4-stroke engines), all of a sudden EMD engineers got dumb-dumb and have hit the wall with 2-strokes? Not buying it for a minute!

2: This would allow Caterpillar to streamline their engine line by using this engine. I found this very model of engine in Cat's line of power generators...

http://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/p ... 03929.html

That picture has to be wrong in that link BTW cuz I'm only seeing 16-cylinders there. But that's the right model number otherwise. EDIT: If you click on the 360-degree view button, the correct 20-cylinder will be shown. They screwed up the face page picture with a 16-cylinder pic.

With it's full width monocoque carbody, 4-stroke engine and a body style with a flatter nose that's closer looking to a GENESIS then EMD's past "F" line of passenger locomotives.... it's clear Cat wants EMD powering long haul transcontinental Amtrak trains. To me it looks more like a Euro-Train design then an American one.

You know.... Caterpillar has put their engines in locomotives before and it's gone pretty much nowhere market-wise. They've been somewhat successful with their engines for passenger loco HEP use. I just see this as them taking another shot at the target by taking advantage (hijacking) of an EMD brand that built it's name on reliable (most of them) 2-strokes with their signature fast spool up.

Here is a cat engine in a MK5000C locomotive. You hear the gurgling engine (#5003) at the 3:14 mark with an EMD's 2-stoke turbo chiming in next to it at the same time....




So yeah.... this development doesn't seem to bode well for EMD's 2-strokes in the future.

[JohnTrainHead]

Ugly... What happened to locomotives that actually looked nice? Is it that hard to make something that looks good?

[buzz456]

Ugly... What happened to locomotives that actually looked nice? Is it that hard to make something that looks good?

I agree with you. These new slick looking things have no soul.

[Chacal]

Being 4-stroke instead of 2-stroke------- REALLY UNHAPPY!

Would it help if they had huge hidden speakers blasting the sound of a 2-stroke?

[1225fan5358]

Metrolink ordered around 20 of these. Amtrak has made no announcements about these. Amtrak might go towards GE again. There is a possible 2nd generation Genesis that may be in the planning stages. (Rumors rumors rumors).

[GSkid]

Ugly... What happened to locomotives that actually looked nice? Is it that hard to make something that looks good?

I agree with you. These new slick looking things have no soul.

+10

I like it when we agree on something. It's like comparing a modern Chevy Corvette to a 1957 Corvette. The new Corvette is cool and all, but give me the body lines of American classics like the '57 Corvette, '57 Ford Thunderbird (my favorite car of all time), '67 Pontiac Firebird or a '73 Plymouth Barracuda. It's part of why the modern Dodge Challenger and Chevy Camaro with their throwback designs have been so successful in praise and sales.

The front end of this EMD F125 with the fat, flat, bulbous nose and the futuristic euro-headlights makes me think of the front end of those little euro-smart cars or a euro-bus!

No disrespect to our European members here but I want a design that says American. Not something that looks like a homogenized European design. If I want that, I'll look towards a European maker. Europe has this weird bi-polar attitude towards design. On one hand, they are very proud and adamant in keeping their old buildings and cities looking like they were in centuries past with cobblestone streets and such. On the other hand, they design a lot of products to look as futuristic forward looking as possible. It's a very weird juxtaposition and contrast to witness.

America doesn't look as much of a juxtaposition when we do it because our country, buildings and society are much younger on the timeline of history then Europe. There isn't as much of a vast contrast.

I for one love our big brute, muscular looking freight locomotives with their walkways on the side in contrast to the flat-sided, walkway-less, streamlined rolling rectangular boxes that they are in Europe. At least the older ones from the 50's and 60's have nice rounded, organic lines compared to today. That's why I like Europe's older locomotives better. That's the Europe I like. Of course.... it's all a matter of PERSONAL TASTE! Those that love Euro-train's modern designs... more power to ya!

Would it help if they had huge hidden speakers blasting the sound of a 2-stroke?

+1 Chacal For at least giving me a chuckle.

I love the sound of a 2-stroke. That very deep, low frequency, resonating bass note that rattles buildings, windows and a person's chest cavity in a way a 4-stroke could never do. And when a 2-stroke is screaming like a banshee at run 8 with the classic "drum roll" sound on top of that, it's nirvana for me. I hear 2-strokes farther way in the distance then I've ever heard a 4-stroke. Their low note carries a long distance. Plus EMD's mechanically driven turbo sound is the icing on the cake. It all amounts to sound perfection in MY OPINION!

Seems pretty clear the F125 model number denotes it's 125MPH top speed. Interesting that the engine tops out at a very high 1,800 RPMs.

[thecanadianrail]

The fact is, the EMD 2 stroke engines are extremely reliable engines compared to other engines available on the market, CAT engines are fairly reliable but its not anywhere near as reliable as EMD's big engines. I know this because our switcher has a pair of 12 cylinder EMD's in it, and they have not been rebuilt since they were put in there way back in 1958 (55 years and counting!), only regular oil changes. On the other hand we have a pair of Cat 980 loaders with the big 6 cylinder engine and they always brake down, and we are even rougher on the loco than the loaders. Not shure if the loader is 2 or 4 stroke but that's not my point, its the reliability of the brand and what they make. (not saying cat isn't good, just saying EMD is better)

Now the loco look, seems the design artists just took a P42DC, streamlined it a little and put some guards on the bottom to cover up any equipment. I don't like the look.

Hopefully they will stick to their reliable engine that they have in the SD70's right now for a long time.

[1225fan5358]

It won't look as crazy as it is in that picture.

[dfcfu342]

Spend $200 million developing a tier 4 two-stroke or drop in an already developed compliant engine that already has a supply chain and place of manufacture? It's just economics. Plus factor in a 3+ year development cycle and your new locomotive is a long way off when Amtrak has already expressed interest in finding a Genesis replacement.

And I'm not a fan of the shape either we'll have to see GE's response. We know how consistently reliable the P42 has been

[1225fan5358]

Spend $200 million developing a tier 4 two-stroke or drop in an already developed compliant engine that already has a supply chain and place of manufacture? It's just economics. Plus factor in a 3+ year development cycle and your new locomotive is a long way off when Amtrak has already expressed interest in finding a Genesis replacement.

And I'm not a fan of the shape either we'll have to see GE's response. We know how consistently reliable the P42 has been

The fact that the P42s have lasted as long as they have is remarkable. Most would've projected them to be retired in 2010. By that, people expected them ALL gone by them. Amtraks history with GEs is rather a bumpy road. The P42's are the longest lasting GEs Amtrak has ever had. They might go towards EMD or Seimens. Siemans doesn't have much of a history but EMD is known to be reliable, but expensive.

[5292nate]

THAT is the UGLIEST POS I've ever seen!

[Ericmopar]

I used to tune high performance motors for fun and profit.

Fact. Two Strokes make lots of pollution and EMD and other diesel makers have been getting off scot free with virtually no true emission standards, until now.

Fact. Two strokes have a narrower power band than a four stroke motor. A four stroke has a camshaft that allows precise valve timing events, which allows a better less contaminated air charge and broader torque and power curve.

Fact. Two strokes are cheaper to build do to less parts, which is why EMD probably stuck with them for so long. (That and brand identity)

Fact. Two strokes have worse exhaust contamination of the fresh air and fuel mix, because of the way they operate, which is why four stroke engines have pretty much caught up in power per CI.

Fact. Quick response to throttle changes has more to do with reciprocating mass than 4 stroke vs 2 stroke.

Fact.... nothing sounds like a EMD two stroke, but times change...

Fact. They are keeping the turbo, so there should be a nice whine in that exhaust note.

I agree, it's Butt ugly.

[GSkid]

I used to tune high performance motors for fun and profit.

Fact. Two Strokes make lots of pollution and EMD and other diesel makers have been getting off scot free with virtually no true emission standards, until now.

Fact. Two strokes have a narrower power band than a four stroke motor. A four stroke has a camshaft that allows precise valve timing events, which allows a better less contaminated air charge and broader torque and power curve.

Fact. Two strokes are cheaper to build do to less parts, which is why EMD probably stuck with them for so long. (That and brand identity)

Fact. Two strokes have worse exhaust contamination of the fresh air and fuel mix, because of the way they operate, which is why four stroke engines have pretty much caught up in power per CI.

Fact. Quick response to throttle changes has more to do with reciprocating mass than 4 stroke vs 2 stroke.

Fact.... nothing sounds like a EMD two stroke, but times change...

Fact. They are keeping the turbo, so there should be a nice whine in that exhaust note.

I agree, it's Butt ugly.

Okay I 'm not an expert guru at engines, but I did take auto shop in high school and sold auto parts at one time, so I question some of your assertions....


1: If 2-strokes met tier 1, 2 and 3 emissions standards up to now, how is that getting off scot-free? Explain how those tiers were not true emission standards, yet tier 4 is somehow a TRUE emission standard? That makes no sense.

2: As for powerband and torque and power curves? Well here's EMD's brochure on 2 stroke vs 4-stroke and tell me how that fits with your arguments? Based on those graphs, 2-strokes look mighty good. Even mentions they are already working on Tier-4 for the 2-stroke engine.

http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/product ... sBroch.pdf


3: I'll agree with you that the fresh air is a little more contaminated in the combustion chamber of a 2-stroke due to a 2-stroke's design. They don't expel the exhaust as completely as a 4-stroke due to the design of 2-strokes in general. Thus leaving more residual exhaust in the chamber as fresh air is entering.

4: Quick throttle response due reciprocating mass? A 2-stroke is in it's powerstroke at twice the rate as a 4-stroke. That means a 2-stroke cylinder is contributing power to the crankshaft twice as often. A 4-stroke cylinder is more dependent on the crankshaft for momentum to get it through it's remaining cycles then a 2-stroke is. If something is in it's powerstroke at twice the rate, logic says that's why it's able to spool up to max RPMs quicker then an engine whose powerstrokes per cylinder are at half the rate. Right?

5: They are keeping the turbo? Unless the engine going into the F125 is fundamentally different then the same engine model they are using in power generation, it's not like an EMD turbo at all. Based on the picture of the Cat engine, it's purely exhaust driven. EMD's turbos are mechanically driven in the lower RPMs and exhaust driven in the higher RPMs. Which essentially makes it a supercharger/turbocharger hybrid functionally. So expect the F125 to sound nothing like an EMD both in the sound of it's turbo as well as the engine itself.