Resistance Data Repository

Discussion of rolling-stock creation & re-painting.

Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dimovski » Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:09 am

Gentleman,

after a lot of testing and research, I've come to some conclusions about resistance in RailWorks (apart from it being implemented in a **!!bang!!** way, that is), and how one can more-or-less "cheat" his way to prototypical values.

Before I come to the actual point of this topic, I think it would be best to post a link here which could prove very useful to modellers:

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=m ... 1up;seq=44
Starting from here, there are a couple of pages from a Baldwin book which should give everyone (even me) a good understanding of the various resistance losses occuring in a train, together with a very useful, and probably rather accurate formula to calculate the resistance of a train.

Now to RailWorks. Friction in RailWorks is implemented via 3 constant parameters and one variable.
These are:
1)mass
2)rolling friction coefficient
3)drag coefficient
4)speed

Although one would expect mass to be a rather straightforward thing, it'd probably be a good idea to mention here that the mass in the configuration files is in imperial (long) tons.

The rolling friction coefficient makes it possible to create a constant retarding force which acts upon the train. A value of 0.01 here would mean that you need to use 1 lbf of force to move 100lbs of weight at a constant speed over the rails.

As we know that the Davis equation mentioned in the link above is a 2nd order/quadratic equation, we can substitute the long mathematical thingy above with the formula R=a*x^2+b*x+c. The force caused by the rolling friction coefficient thus takes the role of "c".

The drag coefficient should thus take the role of "a"... But wait, where's "b"?! Well, gentleman, the short answer is RailWorks. Which leads me to the main point of this topic:

Although the drag coefficient can be used to simulate both the "b" and "a" components of the Davis equation, the results are often somewhat... off.

To demonstrate this, here's a chart I've made with the help of Excel, trying to find a neat way of circumventing the limitations of RW:

Image

The greatest absolute discrepancy is around 49lbf at 35mph, the greatest relative discrepancy is however a terrifying 24,515% at 20mph.




Here's where the community kicks in! If people are willing to take their time and modify the above named parameters to achieve more accurate results, they absolutely need a reference frame!

As you see here, dear forum community, as the 2nd defining point of this chart's equation and drag coefficient, I've used 70mph. I think we will all agree that WD 2-8-0 Austerities haven't ever reached 70mph, although this is possible, with a very light load or favourable gradients.

That's why I'm asking you guys to post here highest average running speeds of specific equipment, at a specific time period, and with a specific operator.
(In case this doesn't sound to clear to you, I mean something on the lines of: Milwaukee F7 4-6-4, 100mph*)

*100mph on schedule, yes they reached more, so if the community is willing to, we could create some sort of standard to bring maximum accuracy to the operating speed range of the equipment we have available. Whilst it won't entirely remove the inaccuracies forced upon us with RWs physics model, it should atleast bring us closer to reality.


Thanks for your time, and sorry for my poor English.
dimovski
 

Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Sat Aug 15, 2015 2:43 pm

Thanks, that is very interesting data.

But how do we proceed from here? How will all the rolling stock get corrected? DTG won't pick this up most likely, not even for future DLC.

Will it affect existing scenarios? If these break, the cure is worse than the pain.
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Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dtrainBNSF1 » Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:55 pm

_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha wrote:Thanks, that is very interesting data.

But how do we proceed from here? How will all the rolling stock get corrected? DTG won't pick this up most likely, not even for future DLC.

Will it affect existing scenarios? If these break, the cure is worse than the pain.


Seems to me that a series of patches would need to be developed for the rolling stock. These patches would be best done route by route or pack by pack in my opinion. It'll take someone smarter than me, that's for sure !DUH!

I agree that DTG more than likely wouldn't take it up, although if a 3rd-party developer were to release a route with stock that included these calculations to the parameters on Steam and that route took off and became a success I could see DTG saying "Hey! Players like this! Let's integrate this into future projects." That's what happened after Canadian Mountain Passes was released with its then-revolutionary brake system. Players showed a lot of support for that brake system because it felt more realistic than what was done previously and DTG took the hint and put that braking system into other projects like the NS Coal District. If DTG did take this concept of resistance as presented by dimovski, they wouldn't go back and apply it to stock retrospectively; never have.

I expect that as changes in the resistance figures would affect the stock for a particular route, it would affect the scenarios. That's not to say that this shouldn't be pursued, but it places a lot of importance on future loco mods to be spot on in power and speed to match the adjusted resistance figures.
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Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dimovski » Sun Aug 16, 2015 2:50 am

Well there are 2 approaches here:

1)conformism - we try with all our might not to break scenarios, but due to the sheer mass of them and the ludicrous interlapping of rolling stock, motive power and routes

2)non-conformism - we discard *all* anecdotal evidence, any concern for scenarios etc., and use maths combined with *some* prototypical info (for example, unfitted british coal hopper? no point for a quadratic equation connecting points at 0 and 70mph, 0 to 25mph will suffice => more accuracy)

2) Ofcourse means that the community needs a brave hero to tackle revamping of the scenarios. Sadly, I'm much more of a QD guy, editing scenarios is !*hp*! !*hp*! !*hp*! to me, so I won't really be able to help out there.


Anyway, I haven't tested the values I've for a coal hopper just yet, but if I'm correct in my assumptions, it might not be all that tragic for scenario-players:

Most, heck, ALL locomotives (except the GS-4 and SP&S700 I guess) are massively overpowered, and at the same time, most, if not all railcars have drag coefficient values much higher (sometimes 10 times as much!) as what I think should give accurate results.
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Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dtrainBNSF1 » Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:14 pm

Just to make sure I'm on the same page with the Davis Formula:

The formula:
(1.3wn+29n) + bwnV + caV^2
n=total axles
wn=gross weight (in tons)
b=moving friction coefficient (.03 locomotives; .045 freight cars)
V=speed (mph)
c=drag coefficient of air (.0017 streamlined locomotives, .0025 other locomotives, .0005 for trailing freight cars and .00034 for trailing passenger cars)
a=cross sectional area of vehicle (120 sq. ft. for locomotives and passenger cars), 90 sq. ft. for freight cars)

Meaning that c in your quadratic equation should then be equal to .03, or 3lbs, for locomotives and .045, or 4.5lbs, for freight cars. Right? *!question!*
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Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dimovski » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:26 am

dtrainBNSF1 wrote:Just to make sure I'm on the same page with the Davis Formula:

The formula:
(1.3wn+29n) + bwnV + caV^2
n=total axles
wn=gross weight (in tons)
b=moving friction coefficient (.03 locomotives; .045 freight cars)
V=speed (mph)
c=drag coefficient of air (.0017 streamlined locomotives, .0025 other locomotives, .0005 for trailing freight cars and .00034 for trailing passenger cars)
a=cross sectional area of vehicle (120 sq. ft. for locomotives and passenger cars), 90 sq. ft. for freight cars)

Meaning that c in your quadratic equation should then be equal to .03, or 3lbs, for locomotives and .045, or 4.5lbs, for freight cars. Right? *!question!*


Train car resistance consists of 3 seperate resistances:
1)Flange: Flange coefficient(0,03=pass.,loco, 0,045=freight)*Speed*WeightInShortTons(2000lbTons)
So flange is dependent on speed^1, thus flange resistance is b in R=a*x^2+b*x+c
2)Journal(Bearing): (1,3+(29/AverageWeightPerAxle))*WeightInShortTons(2000lbTons)
Journal resistance isn't dependent on speed, it is constant. Thus, journal resistance is c in R=a*x^2+b*x+c.
{N.B."c" for steam locomotives is journal resistance + 20*AdhesiveWeightInShortTons(2000lbTons)}
3)Air resistance: Drag coefficient (freight=0,0005, pass.=0,00034,steam=0,0024)*EffectiveCrossSectionalAreaInSQFT(120 appears to be the default in the book, if you're !*drool*! over accuracy like me, your best bet is to take a drawing of the loco/the frontal part, determine how many pixels the distance between the 2 wheels is (4ft 8,5in), and then patiently cutting out little boxes from the drawing in paint.net, calculating their area as you go)*V^2
Thus air resistance is a in R=a*x^2+b*x+c

As we have decided to use the rolling friction coefficient as our c-component, we have to realize that the rolling friction coefficient hasn't got a unit. This means that the rolling friction coefficient is:
a)In case of a 76 imperial tons heavy hopper, with 4 axles and an area of 120sq.ft., 196.808lb/(85.12*2000lb)=0.001156 (I've never seen more than 6 decimal places in RailWorks, so I guess the best thing to do would be to stick with that)
b)In case of a WD 2-8-0, weighing in at 79,3665 short tons, with 5 axles and an adhesive weight of 67,241 short tons, and an effective cross-sectional area of 120 sq.ft. (more like 90, but I digress):
(Journal Resistance + Steam-loco specific mechanical resistance)/(79.3665*2000) = (248.17654+1344.82)/(79.3665*2000)=0.010036

The drag formula in RailWorks appears to be (and don't ask me why!) Drag=DragCoefficient*V^2/2

So your actual Drag coefficient wouldn't be 0.0024, but 0.0024*2*120.

And ofcourse, this drag coefficient only simulates drag, not flange resistance.

To get a combined estimate of flange and drag resistance:
1)determine maximum speed of rolling stock (say, 65mph)
2)use the formulas above to calculate flange resistance and drag at 65mph for the 76 imperial tons hopper
3)the result should be around 502.476lb
4)65^2=4225, x*4225=502.476lb
5)x=0.118929
6)DragCoefficient=x*120*2 [I think]
dimovski
 

Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dtrainBNSF1 » Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:47 am

dimovski wrote:
dtrainBNSF1 wrote:Just to make sure I'm on the same page with the Davis Formula:

The formula:
(1.3wn+29n) + bwnV + caV^2
n=total axles
wn=gross weight (in tons)
b=moving friction coefficient (.03 locomotives; .045 freight cars)
V=speed (mph)
c=drag coefficient of air (.0017 streamlined locomotives, .0025 other locomotives, .0005 for trailing freight cars and .00034 for trailing passenger cars)
a=cross sectional area of vehicle (120 sq. ft. for locomotives and passenger cars), 90 sq. ft. for freight cars)

Meaning that c in your quadratic equation should then be equal to .03, or 3lbs, for locomotives and .045, or 4.5lbs, for freight cars. Right? *!question!*


Train car resistance consists of 3 seperate resistances:
1)Flange: Flange coefficient(0,03=pass.,loco, 0,045=freight)*Speed*WeightInShortTons(2000lbTons)
So flange is dependent on speed^1, thus flange resistance is b in R=a*x^2+b*x+c
2)Journal(Bearing): (1,3+(29/AverageWeightPerAxle))*WeightInShortTons(2000lbTons)
Journal resistance isn't dependent on speed, it is constant. Thus, journal resistance is c in R=a*x^2+b*x+c.
{N.B."c" for steam locomotives is journal resistance + 20*AdhesiveWeightInShortTons(2000lbTons)}
3)Air resistance: Drag coefficient (freight=0,0005, pass.=0,00034,steam=0,0024)*EffectiveCrossSectionalAreaInSQFT(120 appears to be the default in the book, if you're !*drool*! over accuracy like me, your best bet is to take a drawing of the loco/the frontal part, determine how many pixels the distance between the 2 wheels is (4ft 8,5in), and then patiently cutting out little boxes from the drawing in paint.net, calculating their area as you go)*V^2
Thus air resistance is a in R=a*x^2+b*x+c

As we have decided to use the rolling friction coefficient as our c-component, we have to realize that the rolling friction coefficient hasn't got a unit. This means that the rolling friction coefficient is:
a)In case of a 76 imperial tons heavy hopper, with 4 axles and an area of 120sq.ft., 196.808lb/(85.12*2000lb)=0.001156 (I've never seen more than 6 decimal places in RailWorks, so I guess the best thing to do would be to stick with that)
b)In case of a WD 2-8-0, weighing in at 79,3665 short tons, with 5 axles and an adhesive weight of 67,241 short tons, and an effective cross-sectional area of 120 sq.ft. (more like 90, but I digress):
(Journal Resistance + Steam-loco specific mechanical resistance)/(79.3665*2000) = (248.17654+1344.82)/(79.3665*2000)=0.010036

The drag formula in RailWorks appears to be (and don't ask me why!) Drag=DragCoefficient*V^2/2

So your actual Drag coefficient wouldn't be 0.0024, but 0.0024*2*120.

And ofcourse, this drag coefficient only simulates drag, not flange resistance.

To get a combined estimate of flange and drag resistance:
1)determine maximum speed of rolling stock (say, 65mph)
2)use the formulas above to calculate flange resistance and drag at 65mph for the 76 imperial tons hopper
3)the result should be around 502.476lb
4)65^2=4225, x*4225=502.476lb
5)x=0.118929
6)DragCoefficient=x*120*2 [I think]


That actually makes a bit more sense now *!greengrin!* I think I'll stick with the book's default 120ft^2 for the effective cross-sectional area. Davis made it a standard for some reason and it'll make calculations a little less time-consuming.
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Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dimovski » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:57 am

I've tested this drag calculation out a bit, and from what I've seen:

4.65x as much drag as supposed to on 20mph with 40 loaded hoppers.

That's... pretty dern terrible, I guess.


So either I messed up in the testing process, or even in the calculation process, or RailWorks has messed up units for this. However, I feel somewhat exhausted right now, and can't really get to the bottom of this.


Hope you get more conclusive results with your tests!
dimovski
 

Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dtrainBNSF1 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:08 am

Have you taken a look at the developer docs? They might be able to give some clue as to how friction is calculated for Train Simulator. I quote:

"3.1.19 Drag Coefficient
This figure is related to the Air Resistance of the Vehicle. This value is scaled by
the square of the speed and so has most impact at higher speeds. This term
combines the cross-sectional area and the traditionally quoted drag coefficient
which itself is dependent on the profile the vehicle presents to the wind.

3.1.20 Rolling Friction
This figure is for the friction of wheels and axle boxes. This term produces a
constant force and so has most impact at lower speeds.
Notes on Resistance.
The overall resisting force is calculated as follows
Resistance = Rolling Friction Coefficient * Gravity * Mass + Velocity^2 * 0.5 * Drag
Coefficient* Air Density
The figures used in the vehicle blueprints were largely estimated relative to BR
Mk2/Mk3 Coaching stock, for which accurate figures were available.
Source; ‘Railway Magazine’ August 1979 p388.
Fig 5 BR Mk2/3 Coaching Stock Resistance
Speed Resistance
lbs/ton
10mph 3.6
20mph 4.2
30mph 5
40mph 6.1
50mph 7.7
60mph 9.6
70mph 11
80mph 14
90mph 17
100mph 20
110mph 24
It was found that Drag Coefficient = 2.76 and Rolling Friction Coefficient =
0.00082 gave a close match to the BR figures.
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Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dimovski » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:56 pm

I simply can't get accurate test results.

I don't know how to make the force the locomotive is exerting show up as a number, which means that I'm forced to accept 1-2% of error, but the consistently inconsistent test results are pretty much driving me mad.

The one, single little glimmer of hope is that the loco is consistently topping out at just 20mph with it's test load, even with the variations I did, compared to my 1st, supposedly accurate version. [for testing purposes=> cutoff=TEFraction, whatever the speed, TE at 1, removed rolling and drag resistance from locomotive completely]


So either the drag system is FUBAR, or something else is making a fool of me. !*don-know!*
dimovski
 

Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby dimovski » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:27 pm

Apparently it's just... very undocumented.

Or atleast I think so. After some rough adjustments with 2 test runs (where initially the drag has been around 400% of what it should've been!) I've narrowed the error down to 6,279%. Further testing tommorow.
dimovski
 

Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby Brahiam » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:19 am

Hi Folks!

One thing I've learned since Railworks 2: Physics are screw.
When you play with a loadable car it seems that the game can't find its way with the rolling friction and drag coefficent.
The best way that I've found is to make two versions of the same car, one loaded and one empty.
As I was a real train engineer here in Brazil I got very frustraded with this game and I stop playing for quite some time but now I'm trying 2016 version...
Brahiam
 

Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby buzz456 » Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:10 am

Maybe as a RW pilot I didn't expect too much from Flight Simulator so I just sat back and enjoyed it.
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Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby Brahiam » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:17 pm

buzz456 wrote:Maybe as a RW pilot I didn't expect too much from Flight Simulator so I just sat back and enjoyed it.

I play Flight Simulator too and the physics settings made by microsoft are more real even on the old MS train sim...
Brahiam
 

Re: Resistance Data Repository

Unread postby Brahiam » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:49 pm

dimovski wrote:I simply can't get accurate test results.

I don't know how to make the force the locomotive is exerting show up as a number, which means that I'm forced to accept 1-2% of error, but the consistently inconsistent test results are pretty much driving me mad.

The one, single little glimmer of hope is that the loco is consistently topping out at just 20mph with it's test load, even with the variations I did, compared to my 1st, supposedly accurate version. [for testing purposes=> cutoff=TEFraction, whatever the speed, TE at 1, removed rolling and drag resistance from locomotive completely]


So either the drag system is FUBAR, or something else is making a fool of me. !*don-know!*


I'll make it more tricky. If you use a more real break configuration you won't be able to hold a train on a 2% ramp...

<MaxForcePercentOfVehicleWeight d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="0000000000002A40" d:precision="string">13</MaxForcePercentOfVehicleWeight>

<GraduatedRelease d:type="cDeltaString">eFalse</GraduatedRelease>
<ProportionalBrake d:type="cDeltaString">eTrue</ProportionalBrake>
<MaxReleaseRate d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="000000C0CCCCDC3F" d:precision="string">0.45</MaxReleaseRate>
<MaxApplicationRate d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="000000C0CCCCEC3F" d:precision="string">0.9</MaxApplicationRate>
<MaxCylinderPressure d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="0000000000405040" d:precision="string">65</MaxCylinderPressure>
<PressureForMaxForce d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="0000000000003A40" d:precision="string">26</PressureForMaxForce>
<MaxSystemPressure d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="0000000000805640" d:precision="string">90</MaxSystemPressure>
<MinSystemPressure d:type="sFloat32" d:alt_encoding="000000000000F03F" d:precision="string">1</MinSystemPressure>
Brahiam
 

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