Authentic Consist Information

[RSAdam]

Hiya,

I'm doing searches myself but thought it would be good to ask as well as have a thread to retain such details.

Does anyone know any resources for obtaining authentic train consist information? It's rare in the videos I've been watching, for commentators to describe the make up or even just the number of cars in a train being shown.

One thing we know we must improve on is realistic train formations on US routes :)

Regards
Adam

[Chessie8638]

Easiest way is to get the train info papers from the train crews directly. They show the exact number of cars on the train. Number of loads and empties. And what types of cars. This isn't so easy unless you know the crew or the crew is friendly.. And since when the train reaches it's destination the papers get thrown away since they are now useless, they are hard to come by in general.


Main types of freights.

- Manifest: Can consist of pretty much anything that runs on rails. Boxcars, flatcars, gondolas, hoppers, etc.

- Unit: A entire train made up of a single commodity. Coal, Ethanol, Grain, Autoracks, etc.

- Intermodal: TOFC (Trailer On Flat Car), COFC (Container On Flat Car), Double Stack Containers.

Less Common Moves.

- High-Wide: When something really big or really long needs to be moved and it can't go onto a normal manifest.

- Military Moves: Exactly like the name suggests. Bunch of military equipment on DODX (Dept of Defense) flatcars.

- Lite Engines: Bunch of locomotives being moved across the system to balance power, so no one terminal is power short.

There is no set "Standard" to train length. Unit trains are the most uniform since they run from point A to B and return with very little switching. Most unit trains are around 80-110 cars long.
Also for note. Unit trains carrying dangerous / flammable cargo. Ethanol for example. The train MUST have a buffer (idler) car on each end (can be anything other then a flatcar. Boxcar, Covered Hopper, etc). Ethanol is a Class 3 Flammable liquid, as such the hazmat rules require only 1 non placarded buffer/cover car for loads, and none for empties or residue cars if it is runs as a unit or single commodities train. In a manifest freight it would have to ride at least 5 cars back / away from any occupied engine or caboose. (http://fogchart.com/Down/STUDY/2011%20H ... source.pdf)

Trying to copy what you see in a video is unrealistic and not prototypical just for the fact that freight train length and make up has to do with what traffic level warrant. I'll give an example that I witnessed last year on CSX:

Q117 is a Intermodal train that runs daily from Boston to Chicago. One day it was 17,000 ft long fully loaded with containers. Next day it was only around 4,500 ft or so half the train empty returning well cars back west. Another would be Q380 a daily manifest from Chicago to Selkirk, NY. First day it had around 150 cars. Mostly made up of boxcars and grain hoppers. Next day it was around 85 cars with a mix of everything. You name it it was on the train. I've also seen just engines on a train. It was symbol-ed as a normal manifest, yet it had no cars what so ever.

If you want actual train symbols (Q117, Q380 on CSX for example). I could get a list for every railroad. UP, BNSF, CSX, NS, CP, CN, etc.

[SMMDigital]

Hold the phone here... not to get off the topic, but did you say Q117 was 17 thousand feet, or 3.2 miles in length?(!) Did it have helpers? That would have been tremendous drawbar stress. Here at Debutt's, if you get an 8,000 footer, the dispatchers go nuts and start calling around asking why the train was not broken into two trains.

[thecanadianrail]

Hold the phone here... not to get off the topic, but did you say Q117 was 17 thousand feet, or 3.2 miles in length?(!) Did it have helpers? That would have been tremendous drawbar stress. Here at Debutt's, if you get an 8,000 footer, the dispatchers go nuts and start calling around asking why the train was not broken into two trains.

I think he meant only 7,000 feet in length.

[BNSF650]

Here are some trains that run on the BNSF Cherokee Sub.. You can see how they do the names.

Cherokee sub: H GALTUL, BNSF 965, 6708, 715 (passed Tiger)
H BRCTUL: BNSF 6055, NS 2629 (passed Degroat)
Q ATGLAC: BNSF 4057, 4189 (passed Bushyhead)
M LINTUL: BNSF 796, 5605(passed Racine)
M MEMTUL: BNSF 6648, 4394, KCS 4026-SD70ACe (passed Logan)
Avard sub: Z LACATG, BNSF 7558, 7619, 7894; S LBLMEM, BNSF 5194, 7607 (passed Pawnee)
Q LACATG, BNSF 7230, 5113, 7525(passed Hopeton


Burlington Northern Santa Fe Symbols
Example:
Q-CHC SEH 9-08
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
| | | | | --Date
| | | |--Section Number
| | |--Destination
| |--Origin
|--Descriptive Designation
DESCRIPTIVE DESIGNATION:
A Amtrak
B Bare Table Intermodal
C Loaded Unit Coal
D Light Engines
E Empty Unit Coal
F Foreign Railroad Detour
G Loaded Unit Grain
H High Priority Merchandise
I Deadhead Crew Move
J High/wide Dimensional
K Helper Service
L Local Train
M Regular Merchandise
N Hours Of Service Relief
O Officer Special
P Premium Service Intermodal
Q Guaranteed Service Intermodal
R Road Switcher
S Intermodal Stacks
T Transfer Service
U Unspecified Unit Train
V Vehicle Manifest
W Work Train
X Empty Unit Grain
Y Yard Job (regularly scheduled)
Z Priority UPS - LTL Intermodal

http://www.blet75.org/palm/Train%20Defi ... ymbols.pdf

[Chessie8638]

SMMDigital: Hold the phone here... not to get off the topic, but did you say Q117 was 17 thousand feet, or 3.2 miles in length?(!) Did it have helpers? That would have been tremendous drawbar stress. Here at Debutt's, if you get an 8,000 footer, the dispatchers go nuts and start calling around asking why the train was not broken into two trains.[/quote]

I think he meant only 7,000 feet in length.

Nope. Confirmed it twice when DS said "Well I have Q117 and he's around 17,000 ft long." And when the detector went off. six hundred forty-something axles. 18 of them were the 3 GE's pulling the thing. All in the old 'train log' from that trip. After getting out of MA CSX has the old NYC "Water Level" route to Cleveland, OH. And Cleveland to Chicago has nothing more then a 1.5% grade I believe. CSX is nothing like NS. They don't care as long as the train gets over the road. Heck they use GP30 road slugs on Autorack trains, lol.

Anyhoo:

CSX Symbols (Doesn't include all, but 90% ain't bad): http://railroadfan.com/wiki/index.php/CSX_Train_Symbols (This might all be useless if CSX keeps messing with symbols. Even their crews are shocked to see a train show up that's not on their route)

NS Symbols for everything but coal: http://www.angelfire.com/ri2/canadianpa ... ymbols.pdf
Norfolk Southern Coal train are in the 800 series. 500 and 600 series for coal trains on ex. Conrail Track. If I remember correctly, odds are loads and even empties. Odd ball moves (OCS, Geometry Train, Work Train, etc) are in the 900 series. The 000 series (070, 095, etc) are mostly passenger trains.
001-040: Amtrak.
041-042: Executive/Track Inspection trains.
043-044: Operation Lifesaver - sponsored trains.
045-046: Marketing/Inspection trains
047-051: Circus Trains
052-055: Hi-And-Wide Moves
056-059: Military Equipment trains
060-063: Excursion trains (Steam-powered)
064-067: Excursion trains (Diesel-powered)
068-069: Excursion trains (Deadheaded)
070-080: Foreign Road trains on NS trackage
081-099: Special movements

BNSF and UP Have the craziest symbols. Not even gonna try to remember them, haha...

BNSF: http://www.blet75.org/palm/Train%20Defi ... ymbols.pdf

UP: http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/trainland/ ... psyms.html

CP (Probably doesn't include coal trains): http://www.angelfire.com/ri2/canadianpa ... ymbols.pdf

CN: (Same w/ CP not sure if coal trains are included): http://www.angelfire.com/ri2/canadianpa ... ymbols.pdf

[micaelcorleone]

Also take in mind that many long freights, especially if they challenge mountainous terrain, have helpers in the consist.

Today, these helpers are mostly controlled via radio control. Then they are called "DPU" = Distributed Power Unit
If they are operated by an extra crew, they are called "Manned Helper Set".

Mostly these helpers are on the rear of the train and push it over the mountain. If it's a really long train and/or it goes through many tight curves, there is also often an additional helper set in the middle of the train.

A good source to see what consits are typical on a certain route can also be Youtube videos or professional videos, like from 7ideaproduction:http://7ideaproductions.com/catalog/index.php

their Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/7ideaproductions

Their "Cascade Sub" DVD includes trains in full length. In their newer releases, they often made a cut in between (which is better if just want to watch the trains and not wan to see freightcars for several minutes).
I think that your boss, Paul, said some time ago that he owns some of their videos.

Also Adam, if you have a look into the two Cajon Pass scenarios for the Genesis dlc: I did these scenarios and I tried to include prototypicall freights.

[bsrrco]

Info on the UP can be found here http://fogchart.com/Down/Other/PDF/UPSymbols.pdf and here http://www.uphs.org/articles/trainsymbols.pdf

for example one of the manifest freights that come through here is 1MKCPB15 which means "first section--manifest freight--Kansas City--Pine Bluff--on the fifteenth day of the month.
Here is how it is broken down
1---section
M--type of train
KC-origin
PB-destination
15-date

One thing about the UP, since it is so large the origin or destination symbol could mean more than one place, for example CL could mean either Clem,Oklahoma or Clinton,Iowa.

[kevarc]

Adam, PM me what routes you are looking for. I have a lot of reference material I can look at. Granted I may have to get my wife to mail some stuff to me and that may take time ( I work away from the house - this project is only 6 hours from the house.)

I have tonnage ratings for various lines, train makeup - engine#'s, loads, empties, total weight.

[harryadkins]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for your good work with Railworks. I live on the former Atlantic Coast Line (now CSX) between Charleston and Florence, South Carolina. CSX through here is pretty flat and the company has almost standardized many of their freight trains. I can give you the train numbers later, but here is a broad overview of the consists I see daily.

Intermodal trains are usually a mix of COFC and TOFC. They usually have two locomotives (Dash 9, AC4400, or SD70) up front and 60-80 cars. On occasion the consist may need three locomotives if it has 80-90 cars.

Manifest trains can carry just about anything. They will either have two locomotives (Dash 9, AC4400, or SD70) or three SD40-2's up front and 60-80 cars. High priority manifests will have three locomotives with the same 60-80 cars. Sometimes I have seen a combo of two SD40-2's and two GP38's or GP40's on these trains.

Unit coal trains usually have two locomotives (Dash 9, AC4400, or SD70) up front and a third locomotive (DPU) on the rear. They generally have 90 coal cars.

Unit grain trains usually have two locomotives (Dash 9, AC4400, or SD70) up front and 60-80 covered hoppers. These trains are seasonal and generally run in the Fall.

Local switchers on my division run from Florence south to Kingstree or Salters. They will usually have two locomotives (SD40-2, GP40, or GP38) and 30-40 mixed freight cars according to shippers demands.

Not many autorack trains run through my area, but the ones that do generally have two locomotives (Dash 9 or AC4400) and 40-50 autoracks.

One other train we see regularly is the Tropicana Juice Train. It usually has two locomotives (Dash 9 or AC4400) and 40-50 cars. The train consist includes mostly refridgerator cars but can also have tank cars, and intermodal (COFC and TOFC).

Again, my territory is flat. When you start running trains in mountaineous terrain, most railroads will add a helper set of 2-4 locomotives to the rear of the train until the mountain is crested. Also, other areas of the country will have different unit trains based on the industries served. It's best to research those routes individually.

I hope this helps. It is grossly over simplified, but pretty accurate for the CSX Charleston Sub.

Harry

[TrainMaster1]

Hi All:

Have lots of experience on this topic as for over a year now we have been running Class Once prototype sessions. In many cases we have info right down to number of cars, loads/MTs and feet and tonnage.

There are a number of sources out there. Merely knowing the codes helps but I have seen to many made up symbols that don't exist in real life. It helps that we have a number of Class One employees in our group so we get access to the real info.

You are right on CSX....they change symbols on such a regular basis you wonder if their crews are in the witness protection program. Dealing with this right now as we are on the CSX for our next operating session on October 1st.

If you have some specific ideas let me know. Maybe I can help.

Nick

[Chacal]

Perhaps the information you used on your previous sessions could be made available to us?
That would be a great source of info for RW scenarios.

[TrainMaster1]

Sorry all information on trains that run in sessions will be used to develop our own set of rolling stock and activities and scenarios. These will be available free of charge to any RW owner who is also and active qualified engineer with our prototype group. These will be made available at a later date to the general public but they will not be free at that point.

Just another of the many reasons to join us if you are serious about learning class one railroad prototype operations and how to replicate those in live operating sessions.

Nick

[thecanadianrail]

Sorry all information on trains that run in sessions will be used to develop our own set of rolling stock and activities and scenarios. These will be available free of charge to any RW owner who is also and active qualified engineer with our prototype group. These will be made available at a later date to the general public but they will not be free at that point.

Just another of the many reasons to join us if you are serious about learning class one railroad prototype operations and how to replicate those in live operating sessions.

Nick

what are you talking about? never heard of your group before now, what did you say it was called because it sounds very interesting! I myself enjoy running prototype operations, it gives the most realism i believe.

[TrainMaster1]

Our group is VORA (Virtual Operators Railroad Association) we can be found at: http://vrma.proboards.com

We have run dozens of sessions all over North American routes and have a system that allows us to assemble a group of sim owners and put them on an actual day in the life of a Class One Railroad. We research every last detail down to motive power used on the actual train plus car counts (load/MTs), tonnage and length. You bid on call board and are guided by the session Train Master in the correct assembly of your train. All new people start on the extra board and work their way up to senior engineer, conductor or more. In one sentence, what we do is the difference between playing a sim and running a railroad. If you like prototype operations you will love what we do.

Next Saturday 10/1 we travel back in time to 1996 when we run on the CR Indianapolis line. There will be 22 road freights plus multiple local jobs working the line all controlled by two dispatchers and the Avon Yard Master. The session will also feature live maintenance of way personnel doing track work and causing indigestion for crews and dispatchers alike.

If you would like to know more go to our forum and read the FAQ. We are trying to put sessions for RW owners together very soon so we need a number of good people to go through our engineer intro program so you can learn the fine points of what we do and how we do it. All new members including actual railroad engineers start here. Our group plans to hold ongoing sessions for MSTS, RW and TRS users. Once you are an engineer with us you can run in any session where you own that simulator.

If you would like to listen in on 10/1 send me a PM and let me know that and I will get you the information you need to hear all the action. If you like what you hear you can attend our Next Intro Events coming up on 10/6 (Part I ) and 10/9 (Part II). This is where you'll learn what you need to know to run in RW sessions with us as a crew on a selected Class One Railroad.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.

Nick