New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Discussion about RailWorks scenario creation.

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby minerman146 » Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:06 pm

jalsina wrote:
minerman146 wrote:
Jalsina, thanks for speaking on this subject. I would need to address some of this by specific location. I actually bury some signs to put limits on x-overs for example, because there are speed restrictions on the switches. That wasn't what you were speaking of. So one issue is missing posted speed changes yes? This thread is for what you pointed out - correct errors that may impede scenarios and/or I document what is there and why. I think this is fun to fix to improve fidelity. All I need is a screen shot and the issue. I know this route! And Thanks brother Jalsina for that first sentence - wow!


No. When I refer to visibility of speed limits I refer to the HUD strip.
What I described above was from a short QD run from Patterson Westbound Freight to NJ to (VIA) Suffern. There are in this short leg 3 or 4 issues.
I can´t help you chasing others SL. I will send you a PM telling you why.


Jalsina,
Thanks for the PM! I will check this QD for examples of the error. Thank you for that. !!*ok*!!
EDIT: FIXED (old,old stuff original it was baaaad, but easy to fix)

October 29th: 2230-2330 Hawthorne Mainline (User Request Jalsina) Correct Speed at platform from 60/55 to 60/40 Replace All signals From Patterson to Ridgewood JCT, add new speed signs where missing, new embankment for NYS&W
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
User avatar
minerman146
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Cornwall, New York

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby jalsina » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:11 pm

I started a QD scenario from Hoboken to the north.
In front of Volvo North America going northbound there is this gantry:

20161114215330_1.jpg

This is an example with several problems:

1) The track has a speed limit of 70 mph (passenger).
2) There is a speed sign for 70 (no need as the track is already setting the speed).
3) The light in the gantry sets the speed limit at 60 for the straight stretch (it has to be deleted).
4) The sign speed detector is placed beyond the light speed detector. This means the train coming at 70 suddenly changes to 60 (no warning in the strip), but once the train passes the gantry signal far detector, it changes to 70.

The speed sign detector on the track should always be exactly at the place of the stanchion (post).
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Intel i7-7900K (3.60 GHz) - ASUS Prime Z390A - 32 GB DDR4 RAM 2400 MHz
GPU EVGA GTX-1060 OC 6GB at 1920x1080, 144 Hz - Monitor ASUS VG-248QE
System Windows 11 Pro in WD SSD 500 GB. Games in Inland 1Tb M.2 NVMe PCIe
User avatar
jalsina
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:32 pm

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby minerman146 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:41 pm

Jalsina,
Quick Replay: I will start work on the Bergen Line speed and signals from HB to Glenn Rock.
Quick Question: now with the new settings I am seeing speed markers in the HUD where I don't have speed markers placed. Example, Track 2 at NJ at the switch I have the speed set to 35 and have a speed sign there. I'm my HUD when I diverge from track 1 going to track two I see to speed indications: 35, 60. Very Strange.
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
User avatar
minerman146
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Cornwall, New York

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby jalsina » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:42 pm

minerman146 wrote:Jalsina,
Quick Replay: I will start work on the Bergen Line speed and signals from HB to Glenn Rock.
Quick Question: now with the new settings I am seeing speed markers in the HUD where I don't have speed markers placed. Example, Track 2 at NJ at the switch I have the speed set to 35 and have a speed sign there. I'm my HUD when I diverge from track 1 going to track two I see to speed indications: 35, 60. Very Strange.

You have to remove duplication's and signals speed setting for straight runs (like the one in the pic above). It is Ok to use signal set speed limits for diverging tracks, but again you have to define rules and stick to them. A good example of signal usage for setting diverging speed limits is Sherman Hill. Routes like Feather River Canyon do not use signal speed limits at all, but that route has not many crossover switches.

Also when you have to place a post speed sign be sure to place the detector aside of it in the track.
When you have automatic speed limits (that is when <HasSpeedsigns d:type="bool">0</HasSpeedsigns>), you may use visual post speed signs, but only for special cases that you know are (or were) there in the real world.
Remember you have to check both freight and passenger line speed limits.
Intel i7-7900K (3.60 GHz) - ASUS Prime Z390A - 32 GB DDR4 RAM 2400 MHz
GPU EVGA GTX-1060 OC 6GB at 1920x1080, 144 Hz - Monitor ASUS VG-248QE
System Windows 11 Pro in WD SSD 500 GB. Games in Inland 1Tb M.2 NVMe PCIe
User avatar
jalsina
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:32 pm

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby minerman146 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:48 pm

Jalsina
I am working on the changes tonight for Friday release.
Lining the Speed sign with the detector will take a little more time. I have buried speed signs - now I need to find some of them.
Excellent picture and description on the issue.

I now realize, thanks to you, that the signal markers also denote speed. Therefore, one issue that I have is an over abundance of speed sings.

Thank you sir.

EDIT: we were typing at the same time. On item 4, I was able to resolve the server FPS drop in Harriman, NJ, Graham line. I had speed dropped quite a number of tress (pines) that has a detail level set to 10. I changed that to a 5 and cut the distant tree density by 20% all the way around. That got the fps back. So when you pass through the tiles - the transition is much less abrupt.
Last edited by minerman146 on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
User avatar
minerman146
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Cornwall, New York

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby jalsina » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:54 pm

Tonight I have finished the QD run from Hoboken to the Graham Line in the north.
I have not found so many issues with speeds. Of course testing in a QD is not the right way to do, because you need to do it in a free roam scenario and run all and every one of the tracks in the route

Some comments:

1) There are issues in the QD scenarios, like the train being switched to tracks with consists on it or switches set against the track in main lines (twice derailed). Fortunately the route allows you to set any switch in QD.

2) I like the little change in crossover tracks speed, which allows the player to realize the speed set in the previous signal (if any), though not exactly the position (which starts in the switcher servo). That could be a way to communicate to player when there is a signal set speed for a diverging track.

20161115230322_1.jpg

3)The speed limits will require changing speeds in some tracks using the selector tool.

This is an example of a place that needs rework in the tracks:

20161115231751_1.jpg

4) It´s been some time since I ran that same route and it really looks great when considering the track layout and all buildings, roads and flora. Very nicely done route. However there is still the low fps performance, not in my case now, because I am using a GTX1060 since the last weekend. With that card the average is near 40-50 fps. In places like Hoboken you can get them as low as 20 fps.

5) I have not checked any of the signals functionality. There may be a few issues in that area too.

!*brav*! !*brav*! !*brav*!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Intel i7-7900K (3.60 GHz) - ASUS Prime Z390A - 32 GB DDR4 RAM 2400 MHz
GPU EVGA GTX-1060 OC 6GB at 1920x1080, 144 Hz - Monitor ASUS VG-248QE
System Windows 11 Pro in WD SSD 500 GB. Games in Inland 1Tb M.2 NVMe PCIe
User avatar
jalsina
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:32 pm

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby minerman146 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:53 pm

Jalsina,
I am slowly beginning to understand this speed/signal problem. So, now I am removing redundant signs and inspecting signals. I am also starting to replace my Single LIght Gantry with ABS gantry to eliminate where I have 1,2 or 3 track Single Lights on straight track and no divergence.

Where applicable, I am leaving the track speeds for divergence on the signal. The main line speed is no longer noted in signals on the Main and on the Bergen. I am glad you noticed the speed change on the cross over - I thought it was clever. You mentioned the speed change was on the servo. This sounds to me that you have a technical understating of how the signals communicate in game. I have been using trial and error to this point. for the cross over - where is a safe place to change the speed, after the frogs?

FPS issues over all are being reworked. I realize the LOD (level of detail) setting affects polygon count and FPS. I reduced the 10 and 9s down to 6 and 5 usually. But late at night, I get on a good build session, and lay out a bunch of 10s' and wreck fps. I put a forest of LOD 10 Pine Trees by Ardent Hill Road. I found this problem after I released last week. Before correction was 13-15 FPS now is 27 FPS. I also revisited Croxton during my recent speed checks, and found I forgot to reduce my 3 Piece Custom Trailers. All three parts, the Pipe Support, Water Trailer and Container are all LOD 10. If you look at Secuacus/Croxton I think have about 500 trailers there (1500 assets). The will need to be swapped out with to a LOD 5. Hoboken, I did everything I could to reduce assets. What I did discover is that the signals, each 'leg' uses 1mb of ram, they add up. On a side note, sometimes I set LOD 10 on purpose. The smokestacks for the Hudson Generating Plant are set to 10. I saw a picture from Hoboken terminal IRL, and you can see the stacks. So, on the Bergen, you SEE the stacks.

FYI - all track speed corrections in Hoboken are complete, so no more 60/40 track where its supposed to be 15 or 30.
Update is Tomorrow.
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
User avatar
minerman146
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Cornwall, New York

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby minerman146 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:44 pm

Latest Revision of the Scenario Builders Guide: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4DCt ... UNZaGFJNDQ
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
User avatar
minerman146
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Cornwall, New York

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby BoostedFridge » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:41 pm

I just read through the scenario creators guide for the first time. This is some absolutely fabulous work you have done! I'm going to start making up a switching scenario for this. Since the majority of traffic on this route is passenger / commuter trains, do you know if the freights / switching jobs are run at nighttime?
User avatar
BoostedFridge
 
Posts: 2277
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:39 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby OldProf » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:27 am

Your Operations Guide is a very impressive document. I must say, however, that as a scenario writer who prefers switching I also find it overwhelming. Since route builders usually do not offer this much information (in fact, most offer no information of this kind at all, probably because they base their work on passenger and through-freight traffic), my work centers on imagination. Basing switching scenarios on the detailed documentation you provide would involve a very different methodology that I think I'd be willing to try, even though it might overwhelm me.

Please do not think that I am criticizing or belittling your work -- far from it.

Perhaps it's too late, but I'm going to suggest anyway that you avoid placing full-length markers on sidings or stub tracks. Short markers that identify the track's purpose (e.g., "Classification 1" or "Z-brand 1") placed in that area very close to switch frogs where freight cars would not be left are best, since they allow scenario writers more freedom.

I'm looking forward to the release of your route.
Tom Pallen (Old Prof)

{Win 10 Home 64-bit; Intel Core i7 6700 @ 3.40GHz; 16.0GB Single-Channel @ 1063 MHz (15-15-15-364); 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960}
User avatar
OldProf
 
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:09 am

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby minerman146 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:59 am

Old Prof - I was hoping to hear from you. I have some news - there is finalized version of the Bergen that has been out for the past 10 days. Give it a go and read my notes. The route name is New York Division - Croxton Ordinary.

Regarding the Operations guide:
1. Its a scaled down version of the real employee manual for the New York Division: the take away from the first section is basic track rules and speeds and list of "stations" which becomes really important in the Builders Section.

2. The consignee list - This is the overwhelming section. To simplify it, Separate out Carlton Hill (as the sidings are not built yet) and the Ford Plant (as it so large operations center on it) The rest is a list of the other 47 consignees and what they take. EDIT: The key thing is the FROM and TO STATION at the bottom of each entry. Correspond the stations to the markers on the route - you can see the traffic flow!

3. The Builders Section: your most important take away ( and what I learned ) is the concept of freight "stations" Here are the 4 basic operations of our freight line.
A. Through Freight Points West or East that start or end at Croxton.
B. Station jobs: Full cars are delivered from Croxton to yards, interchanges and sidings. Empties are picked up form yards, interchanges and sidings.
C. Locals jobs: Full cars are picked up from stations and delivered to customers, empty cars are picked up and delivered to the stations.
D. Yard Jobs: classification and the building or breaking down of Through Freights and Station Jobs.

When you combine the Consignee List and the Builders Section - you get the make up of your yards and trains. The first thing you will observe is that we have a majority of cars that are covered hoppers! This will be repeated over and over.

You will notice the smallest amount of traffic is cars originating form customers to be delivered outside the railroad - just like the real thing.

The information there is a GUIDE and not a RULE. You will find that by reading it, you can now visualize the traffic, it starts to make sense. Width all this data you can present classification jobs (which are hugely boring to most) with a degree of realism that will make sorting interesting and you can identify not only what specific customer but the amazing detail of the load itself, which your conductor would see on his manifest.

I haven't tested it yet, but I really believe this is going to work they way I have outlined. Now if I can get the kids to wrap their brains around this... then we would have done something ! !**duh*!!

EDIT:
Perhaps it's too late, but I'm going to suggest anyway that you avoid placing full-length markers on sidings or stub tracks. Short markers that identify the track's purpose (e.g., "Classification 1" or "Z-brand 1") placed in that area very close to switch frogs where freight cars would not be left are best, since they allow scenario writers more freedom.
- I am still digesting this ... interesting
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
User avatar
minerman146
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Cornwall, New York

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby NStrains » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:24 pm

Minerman, your idea is a great one and makes tons of sense! Coming from someone who has never created an actual scenario, I can easily see in my head how things are supposed to go. From Croxton, it appears to be mainly station/local/yard jobs out to Suffern. Which to me anyway, is way more interesting than a through-freight. This will even be great to print out and use for free-roam scenarios. Right now things seem to run ok with the route loaded with rolling stock in the QD scenarios. So I may try setting up a free-roam loaded with my own selection of rolling stock and place it based on the guide and run it like a personal layout. Make the moves I want when I want to haha.
User avatar
NStrains
 
Posts: 1367
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:31 pm
Location: VA near the "B-Line"

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby jalsina » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:09 am

NStrains wrote:Minerman, your idea is a great one and makes tons of sense! Coming from someone who has never created an actual scenario, I can easily see in my head how things are supposed to go. From Croxton, it appears to be mainly station/local/yard jobs out to Suffern. Which to me anyway, is way more interesting than a through-freight. This will even be great to print out and use for free-roam scenarios. Right now things seem to run ok with the route loaded with rolling stock in the QD scenarios. So I may try setting up a free-roam loaded with my own selection of rolling stock and place it based on the guide and run it like a personal layout. Make the moves I want when I want to haha.


!!*ok*!! !!*ok*!! !!*ok*!!
Intel i7-7900K (3.60 GHz) - ASUS Prime Z390A - 32 GB DDR4 RAM 2400 MHz
GPU EVGA GTX-1060 OC 6GB at 1920x1080, 144 Hz - Monitor ASUS VG-248QE
System Windows 11 Pro in WD SSD 500 GB. Games in Inland 1Tb M.2 NVMe PCIe
User avatar
jalsina
 
Posts: 2013
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:32 pm

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby OldProf » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:52 am

minerman146 wrote:Old Prof - I was hoping to hear from you. I have some news - there is finalized version of the Bergen that has been out for the past 10 days. Give it a go and read my notes. The route name is New York Division - Croxton Ordinary.


Where can this be downloaded? Please provide a clickable link.
Tom Pallen (Old Prof)

{Win 10 Home 64-bit; Intel Core i7 6700 @ 3.40GHz; 16.0GB Single-Channel @ 1063 MHz (15-15-15-364); 2047MB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960}
User avatar
OldProf
 
Posts: 2755
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:09 am

Re: New York Division - Bergen Line: Scenario Builders

Unread postby minerman146 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:26 pm

OldProf wrote:
minerman146 wrote:Old Prof - I was hoping to hear from you. I have some news - there is finalized version of the Bergen that has been out for the past 10 days. Give it a go and read my notes. The route name is New York Division - Croxton Ordinary.


Where can this be downloaded? Please provide a clickable link.


Right Here:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =827078456
!*cheers*!
"In business, I prefer to keep company with honest men, so I ship on the Erie"
User avatar
minerman146
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Cornwall, New York

PreviousNext

Return to Scenario Creation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest