Are DTG NA routes incorrectly signalled?

[mrgreen]

I don't use this forum very often, so apologies in advance if this has been discussed already.

With the Steam release of the Searchlight Simulations AC4400 I've been running NA freight trains a lot more than usual (such a great addon by the way), but I've noticed that on Soldier Summit and Pacific Surfliner the signaling "schedule" before a stop signal is clear - approach - stop. I thought there would be an advanced approach signal (proceed, prepared to stop at second signal) before the approach signal, is this just a different signal setup (perhaps an older single block system) or are the DTG signals wrong?

On the Pacific Surfliner route this causes major issues if I'm following another train because I may come around a curve at 50-55mph and be faced with an approach signal and the red signal ahead being less than a mile ahead (sometimes half a mile) = SPAD.

The Canadian Mountain Passes route seems to have this kind of setup (2 cautionary signals before a stop).

[5292nate]

It depends entirely on the railroad in question. The default DTG signals are extremely broken as on Soldier Summit alone, I've been looking at the rear end of a train and had a clear signal. Clear/approach/stop is a very normal signal progression with advanced approach or approach medium normally being used only if the block with the approach is shorter than normal.

[mrgreen]

It depends entirely on the railroad in question. The default DTG signals are extremely broken as on Soldier Summit alone, I've been looking at the rear end of a train and had a clear signal. Clear/approach/stop is a very normal signal progression with advanced approach or approach medium normally being used only if the block with the approach is shorter than normal.

Thanks for the info! I presume Pacific Surfliner would then have advanced approach/approach medium in some (or all) blocks because of the shorter blocks (or perhaps the block length is what is incorrect, or both).

Can you recommend any NA TS2021 routes that have correct signaling?

[JohnS]

It depends entirely on the railroad in question. The default DTG signals are extremely broken as on Soldier Summit alone, I've been looking at the rear end of a train and had a clear signal. Clear/approach/stop is a very normal signal progression with advanced approach or approach medium normally being used only if the block with the approach is shorter than normal.

Thanks for the info! I presume Pacific Surfliner would then have advanced approach/approach medium in some (or all) blocks because of the shorter blocks (or perhaps the block length is what is incorrect, or both).

Can you recommend any NA TS2021 routes that have correct signaling?

I haven't found one that has 100% prototypical signaling yet. I have worked on the Northeast Corridor and the North Jersey Coastline in real life. They tried to get them close but the progression of signals meaning clear-approach-stop and all variants in between don't match up to what real world rules dictate. There are so many signal combinations that they probably didn't program them all in when scripting the signals. Also, many railroads have their own signal rules or follow NORAC or GCOR signal rules. Like the Northeast Corridor and North Jersey Coastline follow the NORAC signal rules along with cabsignal rules. Pacific Surfliner I believe follows the GCOR signal rules.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

And the scripts are now obfusacted into .out files.

However, if you still have access to an old Train Simulator install, you'll find the scripts in plain .lua format, ready for study and improvement.

[BNSFdude]

I've yet to see a BNSF route follow our signalling guides 100% but the Hi-Line is certainly the closest with exception to a few wonky indications here and there.

BNSFs signalling is a hybrid route/speed signal scheme that can be broken down like this:

If a diverging route is the following speed, you will get this as an advanced indication:
<20MPH - Approach Restricting
25-49 MPH - Approach Medium
50-59 MPH - Advanced Approach
60 - Approach Limited

This of course is assuming the Diverging indication is a Diverging Clear, not something else restricted due to block occupancy or the end of main track authority (yards, unbonded sidings). This also isn't true of every bit of territory we have, but is a pretty good general rule to go with unless you know the territory has otherwise from first hand experience or documentation.

[mrgreen]

I've yet to see a BNSF route follow our signalling guides 100% but the Hi-Line is certainly the closest with exception to a few wonky indications here and there.

BNSFs signalling is a hybrid route/speed signal scheme that can be broken down like this:

If a diverging route is the following speed, you will get this as an advanced indication:
<20MPH - Approach Restricting
25-49 MPH - Approach Medium
50-59 MPH - Advanced Approach
60 - Approach Limited

This of course is assuming the Diverging indication is a Diverging Clear, not something else restricted due to block occupancy or the end of main track authority (yards, unbonded sidings). This also isn't true of every bit of territory we have, but is a pretty good general rule to go with unless you know the territory has otherwise from first hand experience or documentation.

To my relatively layman eye (I'm not even on the same continent but I read up a lot on the BNSF signaling scheme when I was playing Run8) the Hi-Line signals seem very realistic.

With the almost 12k feet block length (outside of sidings) and usually Approach Medium - Approach when diverted to a siding, I do wonder how real life engineers drive. Most trains can comfortable stop in 8k feet, do the engineers brake in segments or wait a while and then brake? Obviously this will vary depending on grade etc, so maybe there is no "cookie cutter" answer.

[BNSFdude]

Oh no I'm not saying Hi-Line is wrong, there's just been a couple bugs with indications that occur every once in a while.

[buzz456]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
B

[mrgreen]

Oh no I'm not saying Hi-Line is wrong, there's just been a couple bugs with indications that occur every once in a while.

Not sure this was in response to my comment, but I didn't mean you were I just agreed with "the Hi-Line is certainly the closest" but with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about

I just tried the signals on the Marias Pass route by the way, unfortunately they are quite bugged. For example when stopping at the Bison siding with a train occupying the western block after the exit the signal was Clear - Approach Medium - Diverging clear (lol) - Stop. That was a disappointment, I was hoping to use that route for more challenging gradients for the AC4400.

Does the Livonia Division: Monroe Sub route use DTG signals or custom ones?

[BNSFdude]

Oh no I'm not saying Hi-Line is wrong, there's just been a couple bugs with indications that occur every once in a while.

Not sure this was in response to my comment, but I didn't mean you were I just agreed with "the Hi-Line is certainly the closest" but with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about

I just tried the signals on the Marias Pass route by the way, unfortunately they are quite bugged. For example when stopping at the Bison siding with a train occupying the western block after the exit the signal was Clear - Approach Medium - Diverging clear (lol) - Stop. That was a disappointment, I was hoping to use that route for more challenging gradients for the AC4400.

Does the Livonia Division: Monroe Sub route use DTG signals or custom ones?

They're pretty much DTG signals.

[mrgreen]

Oh no I'm not saying Hi-Line is wrong, there's just been a couple bugs with indications that occur every once in a while.

Not sure this was in response to my comment, but I didn't mean you were I just agreed with "the Hi-Line is certainly the closest" but with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about

I just tried the signals on the Marias Pass route by the way, unfortunately they are quite bugged. For example when stopping at the Bison siding with a train occupying the western block after the exit the signal was Clear - Approach Medium - Diverging clear (lol) - Stop. That was a disappointment, I was hoping to use that route for more challenging gradients for the AC4400.

Does the Livonia Division: Monroe Sub route use DTG signals or custom ones?

They're pretty much DTG signals.

Sad to hear that. Other than the Hi-Line, are there any other routes that come close to having prototypical signals? CMP from Milepost looked like it had pretty realistic signals, so I presume the other ones from Milepost will have the same quality.

[BNSFdude]

Oh no I'm not saying Hi-Line is wrong, there's just been a couple bugs with indications that occur every once in a while.

Not sure this was in response to my comment, but I didn't mean you were I just agreed with "the Hi-Line is certainly the closest" but with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about

I just tried the signals on the Marias Pass route by the way, unfortunately they are quite bugged. For example when stopping at the Bison siding with a train occupying the western block after the exit the signal was Clear - Approach Medium - Diverging clear (lol) - Stop. That was a disappointment, I was hoping to use that route for more challenging gradients for the AC4400.

Does the Livonia Division: Monroe Sub route use DTG signals or custom ones?

They're pretty much DTG signals.

Sad to hear that. Other than the Hi-Line, are there any other routes that come close to having prototypical signals? CMP from Milepost looked like it had pretty realistic signals, so I presume the other ones from Milepost will have the same quality.

Uhm, not to disparage JL's work, but the signalling on CMP is an absolute disaster as far as proper indications and more specifically, link placements and marker placements go. I cannot speak for his newer products, however. BoostedFridge could make a better comment as to why, though, as he was tasked with making scenarios for it for our AC4400.

[mrgreen]

So Hi-Line is it? Have there been any attempts to update DTG routes with custom signaling (among other things) like what has been done for many of the German DTG routes?

EDIT: Not sure if my first sentence sounded entitled, it was not my intention. I've had many hours of enjoyment with the Hi-Line route already, and I'm still creating scenarios, some I might upload here if I'm satisfied with their quality.

[BNSFdude]

Hmm. aside from the RCAP/SMM signals which do look infinitesimally better, there really isn't any other NA signals out there aside from what GNTX and 3DT have made. Despite the name, we do not have any Searchlight Signals in game (yet). Signal scripting is time consuming!