The TSW forums.

[artimrj]

When I first set this part of the forum up I posted an announcement.

viewtopic.php?f=68&t=18192

I suggest all of you go back and read it. It is only a paragraph. If this is going to be a peeing contest constantly I am just going to delete it and you can go to trainsim.com and pee and moan over there as they like that kind of stuff. I have been trying since I got here to keep the place civil and positive as much as it can be. It is the hardest job I ever had. At this point I would rather be back in Nam.

Everyone who plays these sims knows what is wrong with them, but a lot of people do not mind. We do not have to be constantly reminded of this fact. A lot of people of having fun with them regardless of the problems. A lot of people do not consider the producers of the software monsters who just want our money. Every trainsim we have has something wrong. MSTS, Open Rails, Railworks, TSW, Run 8, Trainz and all the others that a lot of you bring up. You can not compare one to another as they all have different scopes. None are perfect and bug free.

As for this forum, it appears to me that all it has become is a scapegoat from the problems with Railworks. All the complaining has shifted from RW to TSW. Well RW still has problems as do the others I listed. Get over it and have some fun for a change.

I get so tired of reading reports that someone is trashing the sim or the creators or both. Or trashing them because they like a certain sim which is not very good in someone else's mind.

At trainsim.com, you can pretty much say anything and it is OK. On Steam you can really say ANYTHING you like and even start small wars about it. No one cares what you say there except other people. Little to no moderation happens there. At Railworks America, a positive attitude is required. Those of us who are, are having fun and getting a lot of enjoyment out of our sims. Nothing is perfect in this world. I do not understand why you would expect a piece software to be perfect or the humans that make it for that matter.

While I am at it, there is also no reason for anyone to be making snide remarks to other users. We are all humans, none of us are perfect. Some people have thinner skins than others and they are getting abused with garbage talk about them. Then they report it to me. I am tired of being the POLICE as I want to enjoy my sims and this forum too! It is becoming too hard of a job.

I do not want to start banning people. Only a hand full of people have ever been banned from RWA, they really deserved it. Like I said I do not want to be the POLICE of the forums. I want all of you to act civil to each other and enjoy the sims and the forums in peace. Not enter a war zone.

Think before you post.

[buzz456]

What he said.

[BNSFdude]

I understand the sentiments you're trying to make here. But being so hopelessly optimistic to the point where no one is allowed to make critique about anything is bull hockey. I have no qualms with the fact that there are people that like absolutely everything that DTG makes, but they have to be willing to accept the fact there are people out there who don't blindly accept everything the way it is and want better.

[artimrj]

I understand the sentiments you're trying to make here. But being so hopelessly optimistic to the point where no one is allowed to make critique about anything is bull hockey. I have no qualms with the fact that there are people that like absolutely everything that DTG makes, but they have to be willing to accept the fact there are people out there who don't blindly accept everything the way it is and want better.

It is not about the critique, but about the way it is presented. Can a person not tell us something is wrong with out trashing it to death. "I can't make this work becaus the programmers do not know what they are doing, they always mess it up." or "All they want is our money and they can't even fix a little thing. They are so stupid." or "It is your fault nothing gets fixed cause you say everything is just fine, you have the Helsinky Sydrome" or "You don't have a clue what your doing you should go back to MSTS if thats all you want."

Critque all you want, good or bad, do it with a little taste instead of sounding like the grim reaper.

[BNSFdude]

I agree with that. In the case of the most recent boondoggle, him going off on Kanawha just because he looks at problems and asks why isn't fair either.

[buzz456]

It's when people go off on the "they only care about making money" and saying how could someone make this mistake. There is nothing wrong with pointing out that something isn't right it's making a snarky remark about a individual or a company's motives is what we are talking about. The criticism of the object is fine. It's even better if the poster either has a clue about fixing the problem or is asking for help in fixing the problem instead of the "Look how smart I am because I just found someones error".

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

I think the sentiments towards TSW will improve once the tools are released that allow us to be creative again, so we can start to ‘play with trains’ proper.

[artimrj]

I think the sentiments towards TSW will improve once the tools are released that allow us to be creative again, so we can start to ‘play with trains’ proper.

And I think it will open a new barrage of complaints because it won't do what everyone wants it to do to their satisfaction. Then the comparing will start. I have written quite a few scenarios for RW and a couple of routes. With all the quirks of RW I was still able to enjoy my scenarios and routes along with 1,000s of other people. Yet there are people still today who struggle making a scenario and those who can never finish a route. If you look through the forum there has to be at least 50 vaporware routes that never came to life. I now am building in Trainz.


The NERW route and the Lafayette routes I made with helpers, took over 2 years each. The NERW had 2400 man hours attached and was only 50 miles long. I created a 50 mile route in Trainz in 3 months. The scenario editor in RW leaves a lot to be desired compared to the Trainz session editor mainly because users can create and add scripts to the editor to make it do what they want. If RW had that same ability it would be awesome, but it doesn't, however that does not make it worthless and unusable.

The same will happen with TSW's editors. Someone will not be abe to use it correctly or easily or be confused or overwhelmed and then it will be no good or worthless or stupid. Nothing changes, it has been this way since 2001 when I first got MSTS.

Bottom line is they are all games. You play games for fun. I rarely see a comment about how fun it was to play, all I see is what is wrong...

[minerman146]

Bob,

I think I get what your saying. Criticism that is well thought out and constructive - ok. Caterwalling and the grinding of axes - NOT ok. And your tired of moderating those that runneth of the mouth and go to far. You're being quite reasonable.

So, untill the critics define those characteristics of what would make a fine working simulator, it would be prudent, for the purposes of improving this simulator, to think about being constructive. So fellas, show some respect to the man and listen up!

Thank you.
MM

[ErikGorbiHamilton]

My :

I honestly think that DTG secretly hates us cause we can make much better content as a third party dev.

[artimrj]

My :

I honestly think that DTG secretly hates us cause we can make much better content as a third party dev.

We are not on a deadline and have no ETA, they do as they are a business, not a bunch of hobbyists. Anybody that has created anything has not been able to complete in the time a 50 man crew can, who are on a deadline. With so many people working on the same thing, doing different things, has to be the most difficult situation I can think of. You have to make sure you are not screwing up someone else's work and they yours.

[buzz456]

My :

I honestly think that DTG secretly hates us cause we can make much better content as a third party dev.

We have a huge advantage. Here we don't have to meet a payroll.

[GERUNIMO625]

We have a huge advantage. Here we don't have to meet a payroll.

Wait, are you saying I’m not getting paid for this?! In that case, I quit!

Seriously though, some advice I would offer from my own experience. Be careful what you wish for.
I used to enjoy flight simulation quite a bit, and sunk larger amounts of time and cash into the “hobby” so I could ‘fly’ as the professionals do. In the end, I sucked all the fun right out of it. Pretty much turned it into a job.

Enjoy and embrace the things that make this simulator “unrealistic”. Because believe me, there are a lot of aspects to railroading that are not fun....even if they pay you.

Take care!

[harryadkins]

I agree with Bob. Let's keep this forum positive and work toward identifying and repairing issues. Early on I had massive issues with both MS TrainSim and Railworks. I'm so appreciative of the help I received on this forum. There are forums I no longer visit because of the constant "bashing" of developers. Let's keep this one positive.

Harry

[QcRail]

I also agree ith Bob.

Remember the famous phrase from an American President ''do not ask what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country''. Now substitute ''TS'' for ''country'' and we might have even more enjoyment from our ''infamous'' simulator.

I, personally, have had many hours of pleasure and numerous hours of frustations were due to the fact that TS and\or DLC are not ideal nor near perfection. We have quite a great bunch of contribuers (whether for money or for practicing a hobby). I, now, spend more time ''under the hood'' then driving and I have great satisfaction sharing my little creations with people that share the same passion.

Indeed, TS in its actual format is not perfect; but if perfection was, we would not be creating assets, consists etc. The void of this sim has given us (and I use the named person as an exemple which everyone recognized) RWTools by Mike Simpsons. He dedicated hours+hours to produce a toolbox of highly needed apps that were never provided by the game developper. Yes! a must - I use it DAILY. This brings me to another observation: I can't phatom the idea that the Dovetail team do not NEED, POSSESS such tool to mass produce and test Routes or Assets. They must have a few that we have little knowledge of; therefore why not produce and SELL as an independent software a developper's toolbox. I would not hesitate to buy such a product. I have a fond memory, during the MSTS glorious era, of a great little addon which was a simple 3D viewer of Assets; is my memory is correct his name was Gomez. A great tool filling another void and it was a stand alone - we did not have to startup the game to view any MSTS model. TS could and would highly benefit from a similar app. Anyone out there with sufficient programming experience to give us a new toy for Christmas?

Yep! if this sim seems to be incomplete then what are you waiting for to help it and make it to your liking.
+
QcRail