TSW anyone?

Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby JerryC » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:48 pm

artimrj wrote:Why would DTG talk with the Open Rails People or Run8 people? I could just see Paul Jackson asking OR if he can see their physics. Then I would love to hear the reply. Would you let DTG look at your source code to make their game?


If memory serves me correctly, a few years back the packaging font for TrainSimulator was changed to one that is suspiciously similar to the one Microsoft used for MSTS. Someone at DTG made the comment "when you are succesful, you would be surprised who starts talking to you." Now, DTG owns the leftovers of Microsoft Flightsim. Who's to say they don't also own the source for MSTS - which would technically also be the source for Open Rails?
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby artimrj » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:00 pm

Yeah I guess we can imagine a lot of things.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby Banks2 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:39 pm

First off I'm excited its finally out, I like the interaction with the cab controls and walking around as well as the styling turntable. The loco's and rolling stock are beautiful and well done. What I think needs improving on is the scenery. The buildings and trees in my opinion are terrible and there's no auto traffic or people moving around. I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about texturing or hows its done. I have American truck simulator and was comparing the two and with both set at ultra I was getting at least 60 fps in ATS and the lowest was 30 and that's with a whole slew of mods added. TSW I'm getting anywhere from 15-45 running A helping hand scenario. I'm running an Alien Desktop i7-6700@3.40ghz 8 GB Ram Nvidia GeForce GTX960....
Just my opinion...
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby cbff33 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:40 am

artimrj wrote:Why would DTG talk with the Open Rails People or Run8 people? I could just see Paul Jackson asking OR if he can see their physics. Then I would love to hear the reply. Would you let DTG look at your source code to make their game?



OR is open source. Anyone can download the coding and look at it and make or propose modifications, or do mods for their own cause and not share it. It would have been easy for DTG to take a look at their coding, and even read the forums that have lengthy posts on how they were getting the physics improved.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby cbff33 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:47 am

OldProf wrote:
RudolfJan wrote:Why so negative? Yes, there are issues, but this not the end but a start. Give it some time. I played now 6 hours on a fairly underpowered PC, but it is fun ... all the dev tools wil come, certainly and additional DLC will come. The lack of it is no reason to say it failed. DTG did a huge job.


I agree! My processor rates below the minimum requirements and fps rates are, literally, in the red most of the time, but I'm still experimenting with assorted settings and the graphics and action are impressive. Don't neglect the "Services", at least one of which, beginning around the turntable, allows you to choose an engine, carry out its tasks, walk to another engine, carry out its tasks, etc: a sort of "rolling" scenario.

What all of us should do is to report our observations, both negative and positive, to DTG's Support area; what they haven't heard about they cannot improve.



Was wanting to do like you are. My processor is slightly below spec. The beta would run, although it was crap. I went ahead and purchased on a gamers site and still got the 20 percent off today. Ran down to microcenter and bought a 1070 strix. Installed TSW, hit play, got a flash of the dovetail screen, and bam, shut down the computer. Computer wouldn't reboot, and if it did it would shut off and go into a on/off power cycle without booting. No warnings, nothing in the system logs. Had a feeling it was PSU issue with new 1070. Had a 600w psu, got my 700w out of my backup computer. Computer fired right up with no issues, but now I am scared to even hit play on TSW. The beta would at least load. I may wait a couple weeks, to upgrade my computer chip to a 4th gen I5 which is the most recent my MB can handle, before I even try to turn on TSW again.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby trev123 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:54 am

Not having any issues with it really. When I opened up the graphics settings about 4 of them were set to high, I have now changed them to medium and on average the FPS has gone up from mid 20s to mid 30s. Just a couple of issues one that I have already mentioned, the smoke and the inability to be able to start on a up hill gradient. Have not done any scenarios but doing the ones which are like QD in TS2017 can't remember what they are called. My 5+ year old computer is running TSW better than what I expected. :D It actually runs smoother than TS2017.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby NorthernWarrior » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:14 am

Another little dabble last night, which has put me over the two hour "PNR" for a refund. *!greengrin!*

Decided to do a Preston Garvey and try something a bit different, abandoned the Snow & Ice scenario in favour of one of the "Services". Also followed Sly's recommendations re offloading PhysX to the GPU.

So far as the latter is concerned, did notice a slight FPS increase but only in the order of 4 - 5 FPS. (Incidentally I think my earlier report of 50 FPS in Cumberland Yard was erroneous, was possibly looking at the lower "ms" value - whatever that is). However the downside of this is that it exaggerates the stuttering and pausing including at least once when I'm sure the screen blanked momentarily and I respawned further along the track. Maybe with hindsight UE4 wasn't the best choice of graphics engine for this type of game. In fact I can't think of any recent A-list game I've played that uses it - not Mass Effect 3, Deus Ex HR or the new MD or any of the Fallout games.

At least the Dash 9 was able to start its train without having to melt the traction motors in Notch 7 as opposed to my earlier experience with the GP38's, but this of course was followed by the excessive acceleration. Absolutely no sensation of "heavy haul" at all, accelerated like a Class 158. And, as others have noted, the Dash 8 sounds are very unlifelike not even as good as the original MSTS 2001 default sounds. Also still to notice any track sound, even if the CSX is mostly welded rail there should be clattering through points and squealing on curves.

On the plus side, having now seen terrain minus the snow it does look very good, though left wondering how the textures are applied. Is the editor/compiler smart enough to take these from aerial imagery such as Google Earth or is it still all hand painted/applied via tiles? Oh and I did see one solitary person walking along the pavement (sorry, sidewalk) in one of the towns but that was all.

A couple of other notes/possible issues for the master list:
Has anyone noticed if the locos consume fuel and where you go to find the remaining quantity?
There doesn't appear to be a quicksave key (either F2 or F5) that I could see.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby trev123 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:22 am

Just looking at my Steam stats for TSW and I have clocked up 4hrs. :D
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby artimrj » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:54 am

cbff33 wrote:
artimrj wrote:Why would DTG talk with the Open Rails People or Run8 people? I could just see Paul Jackson asking OR if he can see their physics. Then I would love to hear the reply. Would you let DTG look at your source code to make their game?



OR is open source. Anyone can download the coding and look at it and make or propose modifications, or do mods for their own cause and not share it. It would have been easy for DTG to take a look at their coding, and even read the forums that have lengthy posts on how they were getting the physics improved.


Is OR written in UE4 also??
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby cbff33 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:53 am

artimrj wrote:
cbff33 wrote:
artimrj wrote:Why would DTG talk with the Open Rails People or Run8 people? I could just see Paul Jackson asking OR if he can see their physics. Then I would love to hear the reply. Would you let DTG look at your source code to make their game?



OR is open source. Anyone can download the coding and look at it and make or propose modifications, or do mods for their own cause and not share it. It would have been easy for DTG to take a look at their coding, and even read the forums that have lengthy posts on how they were getting the physics improved.


Is OR written in UE4 also??



No but physics are physics. And that does not change. The only thing that changes is coding depending on what one uses as a base code. But the physics that need to be coded, those do not change. Between TS, and now TSW, it is very apparent they are taking an MSTS approach to arrive at some form of nutty physics coding that they hope will simulate the feeling. Don't know how these programmers after what, 9 years, can't even begin to get close with the physics. The only people close to getting it right are the 3rd party devs.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby artimrj » Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:06 am

Aren't they using that Simugraph program to create the physics?
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby Griphos » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:27 am

cbff33 wrote:No but physics are physics. And that does not change. The only thing that changes is coding depending on what one uses as a base code. But the physics that need to be coded, those do not change. Between TS, and now TSW, it is very apparent they are taking an MSTS approach to arrive at some form of nutty physics coding that they hope will simulate the feeling. Don't know how these programmers after what, 9 years, can't even begin to get close with the physics. The only people close to getting it right are the 3rd party devs.


Well....could it have something to do with the fact that the "physics" of actual trains in the world and the "physics" of light-emitting diodes are actually simply NOT the same. You do realize these are simulations. There aren't actually any heavy objects moving around on our computer screens. This is a simulation, a representation of something that is of a radically different kind of being. It is one thing to say that the inertia of a given mass is known and can be calculated, but the simulation doesn't actually have anything to do with inertia or mass. It's all about moving pixels around. I can't think of any simulation that gets that right, not flight simulators, not driving/racing simulators, nothing.

You can't "code" physics. You "code" representations of physics, and that's a voodoo world, if you ask me. EVERYONE "arrives at some form of nutty physics coding they hope will simulate the feeling."

And that's even before you add in the fact that WE aren't actually moving either. We watch simulated movement on a screen. Part of the reason that never "feels right" is that in the real world, movement of the sort simulated has effects on our bodies. That's the "physics" that no amount of coding can simulate.

The best anyone can do is try to simulate the motion of visual data to prompt the kind of kinesthetic experience we all have in the actual world. The more successful the visual model, the more likely it will be to call on our memories in ways that suggest the lived experience. That means slowing or speeding up the movement on the screen in particular ways. Programmers can try to tie that change in motion to calculations about what is happening in simulated mechanical systems, but all such efforts are algorithms of a sort, approximating without replicating the physics of the world being modeled.

A2A tries to do this, with some interesting success, in FSX/P3D with their hydraulic and propeller physics engines. But trust an old GA pilot when I tell you it ain't that close!

Expecting anything other than this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of physics.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby BNSFdude » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:05 pm

I dunno, the Corys simulator, despite its terrible graphics and audio, all are calculating how said train should be behaving including each individual control valve, auxiliary reservoir, individual slack between each car and whether or not said car has end of car cushioning...

It is possible to have good physics. All of the material to do so is available. Someone like myself who runs the dern things every day who is willing to give feedback and background data to make things run properly are out there.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby _o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:17 pm

BNSFdude wrote:I dunno, the Corys simulator, despite its terrible graphics and audio, all are calculating how said train should be behaving including each individual control valve, auxiliary reservoir, individual slack between each car and whether or not said car has end of car cushioning...

It is possible to have good physics. All of the material to do so is available. Someone like myself who runs the dern things every day who is willing to give feedback and background data to make things run properly are out there.


I bet all our fussing over physics is of no importance when it comes to UK and European rolling stock. DMU's, EMU's have entirely different characteristics, and a goods train of 20 wagons is considered a long and heavy 'working'.

It seems this whole Simugraph is the bottleneck here, it isn't fast enough/doesn't scale properly. Also those animated hoses and perhaps other stuff that works OK on small consists is clogging the CPU on US size trains.

No doubt optimisation is very high on DTG's agenda, but if the wrong assumptions have been made from the outset, desirable performance can only be achieved by cutting features.
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Re: TSW anyone?

Unread postby BNSFdude » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:23 pm

IMHO the only connections that should have the soft body physics should be the Independent and Actuating lines on the MU hoses. Those are the only hoses IRL that are soft enough for them to noticeably sway under lateral forces.

Brake pipe hoses, and MU cables are so dern stiff that you hardly see them swing when hooked to another one. On the front of a locomotive, I would buy into it.

The thing I don't get is they bothered to model and animate the crossover chains, but the safety chains don't hook up between engines. Which is something very noticeable.
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