Why no CSX family products?

[Toripony]

10 LIVERIES! (8 of them western U.S.) For several years now, the U.S. has only 4 major (Class 1) carriers! (only 3 are included in the 10 liveries offered; one name glaringly absent!).

Once again I ponder... what is wrong with CSX family products? Why does it seem that in both model RR and now sim RR'ing, anything by CSX/Chessie/ or family is the last to be seen. Why is this? I've heard mentions of CSX is the most difficult to license or some such thing.... what is the deal? (from someone who really knows, please?) While I am very grateful for all the repaints users have created, when, if ever, will there be an original licensed CSX family product for Railworks?

Tori

[micaelcorleone]

A quick Google search turned this out:
http://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-csx/company-overview/trademark-licensing/

So it is possible to get a license from them, but I think it's quite expensive (in my opinion, I don't know prices of other RR):
http://www.csx.com/share/wwwcsx_mura/assets/File/About_CSX/Trademark_Licensing/For-Profit_License_Agreement.pdf

So if you let's say license 500 units, you'll have to pay CSX $0.50 per unit.

[arizonachris]

IMHO, they got it backwards. In big screen movies and TV shows, companies will pay to have their products shown, like a Pepsi can, or a Budwiser bottle. Train companies should not require any monies to license their names on the side or a loco or rolling stock. It's advertising! You don't charge people to advertise for you, you pay them to advertise for you, or you don't get advertised! Unless you are a railroad, I guess.

PS: as an example of a game that makes money off of advertisments, ETQW has in game bill boards that change all the time. Activision charges money to advertise on those billboards.

[Derek]

Hi,

There are many licenses we are working to bring to RWs, CSX is one of them.

We are keen to work with as many as we can to help bring authenticity to each product.
Unfortunately some just take longer than others.

best regards

Derek

[styckx]

IMHO, they got it backwards. In big screen movies and TV shows, companies will pay to have their products shown, like a Pepsi can, or a Budwiser bottle. Train companies should not require any monies to license their names on the side or a loco or rolling stock. It's advertising! You don't charge people to advertise for you, you pay them to advertise for you, or you don't get advertised! Unless you are a railroad, I guess.

PS: as an example of a game that makes money off of advertisments, ETQW has in game bill boards that change all the time. Activision charges money to advertise on those billboards.

There is a difference. In the most basic sense of things, it boils down to who benefits the most

Railworks with CSX liveries: Railworks wins 100%.. The chances of someone seeing a CSX engine in Railworks and then calling them up to ship freight because of that is zero. This is a case where CSX usage is purely benefiting another companies sales potential with zero potential out of it for CSX themselves, hence they want cash in return for the use.

[SMMDigital]

The last that I read about CSX (Trains, 2008), they are owned mostly by a Brazillian equity firm, and they are interested only in profit, above all else. It doesn't matter that the rails are rusty and that there are slow orders across half the system, the bottom line is how much money is going in Shareholder pockets. Having worked awhile for the Brazidiot that ruined Anhueser-Busch, I can tell you that $.50 per virtual locomotive probably isn't enough money to get the attention of their Corporate bathroom attendant.

IMHO, if it means RSC has to raise prices for locomotives or take a profit loss, i'd rather get the livery from the third-party re-skinners. Those guys have been doing some excellent work lately.

[ATSF3814]

IMHO, if it means RSC has to raise prices for locomotives or take a profit loss, i'd rather get the livery from the third-party re-skinners. Those guys have been doing some excellent work lately.

100% agreed. If CSX wants to be a bunch greedy jerks and cause RSC to lose money, they shouldn't even bother with them. I've already got plenty of CSX, Chessie and Seaboard locomotives and rail cars from third parties anyway so I see no reason to complain.

[Toripony]

Agreed; I am not interested in anyone paying extra just to get licensed CSX products. I've just noticed this condition repeatedly in model/sim RR'ing and just always wondered why. I do have licensed Chessie N-scale stuff so I know it is possible, just wondered "what their deal" is. Sounds like they're just difficult to work with and don't care about their public name in the U.S. That's a shame; most companies that "lose face" with the American people eventually lose their business. Granted CSX isn't in the public product spotlight like Coca-Cola, but history reflects that the effect is still valid. IBM almost collapsed once because of public opinion about their consumer products, which was only a small division of the entire conglomerate. Meanwhile John Deere put its name on every little green toy tractor made and now what is the most popular home/garden tractor in the U.S.? It is probably (or not?) coincidental that I've watched an admirable and locally respected British turkey farming operation here in the Alleghenies become a heartless mechanised operation that places no value on its employees or public image since becoming owned by a Brazilian conglomerate. Long-timers I know who work there and used to take pride in their job every day now care little more about the work than just making it to Friday for a paycheck. And people not caring about their jobs leads to...... well...... all sorts of bad things. For one, it leads to me not investing money in that company's stock. See... thus begins the public opinion spiral affecting investment appeal affecting stock prices affecting profits.....

Hmmmm.... people seem to like UP.... and they seem to be doing really well.

Sorry... I drifted... mind still foggy from the flu I think, lol.

Tori

[Chessie8638]

UP tired to put outrages fees for a copyright to any model and were suing people left and right for copyright infringement. M.T.H. sued UP in defense of every model company. Lionel, Atlas, Bachmann, Athearn, etc. and won. They negotiated new terms with UP for ANYONE who wanted to make a model with UP logo's; royalty-free (they just had to let UP know about it). Virtual or real. If it wasn't for MTH I highly doubt UP would be in Railworks. In fact during the height of the trademark battle one train simulation company considered using "Onion Pacific" in place of "Union Pacific."

IMHO, if it means RSC has to raise prices for locomotives or take a profit loss, i'd rather get the livery from the third-party re-skinners. Those guys have been doing some excellent work lately.

Agreed.

[SMMDigital]

This is a bit off topic, but it does speak of liveries and copyrights...

If I do remember correctly, back in the early 90's when I was modeling in the real world, I seem to remember a story about some smart fellow who tried to buy the Union Pacific logo and start charging everyone money for it. Was that one with the same story that was above? It may have been nothing more than hobby-shop gossip, but I remember everyone at the shop being really upset about it.

If I also remember correctly, at the time, you couldn't get an N-Scale locomotive in CSX. Everything I had for them and Chessie was personally air-brushed and Micro-Trains decal-led.

[Chessie8638]

This is a bit off topic, but it does speak of liveries and copyrights...

If I do remember correctly, back in the early 90's when I was modeling in the real world, I seem to remember a story about some smart fellow who tried to buy the Union Pacific logo and start charging everyone money for it. Was that one with the same story that was above? It may have been nothing more than hobby-shop gossip, but I remember everyone at the shop being really upset about it.

If I also remember correctly, at the time, you couldn't get an N-Scale locomotive in CSX. Everything I had for them and Chessie was personally air-brushed and Micro-Trains decal-led.

This was around 2003-2005 that UP went to town on the lawsuits. I was really paying attention to it since (despite my username) I model the SP and Rio Grande in HO scale. All the models had an extra $5 tact-ed on to the price. I'm not really sure how CSX works in terms to model companies, I haven't really noticed a price difference. But then again I haven't seen; like you stated; CSX locomotives in N-scale, even today there is only a hand full. I really think CSX is picky about who it gives it's license to...

[johnmckenzie]

Some of the UK DLC has a similar problem - if you look at the EMD Class 66 loco the individual railway company liveries are there - but the logos aren't. Likewise for the Class 390 emu and Class 170 dmu. I think it's very short-sighted of the railway companies personally - because surely they should realise that the image of the company will then fall into the hands of the repainters over whom they have no control of quality, authenticity or PR. Better for a company to have control of its own corporate image, I would have thought.

[johnmckenzie]

That isn't an insult to repainters, they do a WONDERFUL job!!

[Seawolf SSN21]

Because none of the CSX people here in Jacksonville play Railworks! !

[SMMDigital]

@John:

Yes, the repainters are doing some great stuff. But there is a downside. If the RR company who won't license their logos really wanted to be a pain about it, they could go after the painters for trademark infringement, and put pressure on RSC to reign in the repaints by changing the Railworks product licensing (or whatever you call it) to forbid any modification to the models that it produces. Basically it would make anyone who repainted a locomotive or railroad car into the unlicensed livery a pirate for doing so.

Again (geez am I starting to feel old!) in the 90's when I was modeling, you could not get a model of a UPS van, or MicroTrains decals to make a UPS van. UPS was so protective of it's trademark that it would not license it to ANYONE. Model Railroader magazine had an article on how to build a UPS van, and you could do everything up to painting it brown, but you could not put UPS decals on it. I don't know if this is still the case, but it was an odd thing back then since the article was also about modeling a high-priority transcontinental UPS piggyback train.