NEC TS 2012 Optimized

[hminky]

I want to suggest to anyone having lockup problems to delete the NEC and the verify the cache. I must have originally gotten a corrupt download bucause after doing just that, my NEC now runs fine. Now to go hunting for an Acela Express.

Duncan

I had lockups until I added the lock fps line to my command line:

"-FPSLimit=30"

I am running a I7-920 and an Radeon 6950. The limiter makes it run a lot smoother. I was getting a total lock 11 minutes out Trenton in FreeRoam. Now NEC runs great.

Harold

[styckx]

Tori, I think it partially has to do with average gamers just being happy the game runs relatively smooth and can play with trains. Not caring about fps or microstutter, audio cuts, or pauses. They're more understanding a game has performance issues because their PC is 4 years old with a $125 graphics card. So in turn, notching down graphics and having no AA is accepted as "smooth" gameplay on a modern game in 2011 with 2007 hardware.

Then, the other half like me who basically treat PC building as a hobby. Spending a lot of money on top end hardware to have a "worry free" game play option at the highest and greatest seting of any game. I HATE system requirement "shopping" so I just build big money eating PCs to avoid it.

So when a game like TS 2012 comes along and I introduce it to a $750 top of the line video card, a $320 i7 at 4ghz, 8gb DDR3 on a $350 motherboard and I get 8fps scenarios, or jittery 20-30fps gameplay I and anyone else who builds systems like this is going to start pulling every alarm they can find and complain to death about it, it isn't right.

Even with my 5870s and i7 875k no game ever sent my PC in the corner to cry about it. It ate every game I threw at it for lunch. Except TS 2012. Which is now making my 6990 and i7 2600k go sit in the corner to cry about it. My OS's are clean ans well maintained, I'm OCD about useless junk running and my systray NOT looking like a bingo card of icons. :)

[MugHug]

A shot in the dark here.

Is there such a thing with the high-end PCs where it is more ATI/AMD or Nvidia cards having issues.

The buzz over another recent game playing up made me wonder. I imagine there is no connections, but....

To start the ball rolling:

Using Nvidia GTX 460s in SLI and the latest beta drivers and on the whole TS2012 is a joy.

Regards

[Toldrabald]

I'd also like to note that I'm not 'using the community to test the DLC' here. All our conducted testing has not shown these issues, and we have a full range of machines and OS types. We are also not seeing a flood of emails in support noting huge performance drops in the NEC route.

Since you asked for it, I've sent one in

Hey RSC,
with the update to the NEC route I have trouble to play the route. With TSX enabled I can barely drive the route fluently. In most places I get only get 15-16 fps, as soon as another train is in sight it gets really slow and stuttering. Before the update I could run the route on constant 25-30 fps. My system isn't new and not a high-end machine, but just for comparison: I can run the new Deus Ex - Human Revolution with 40fps, Battlefield Bad Company 2 with 50+ fps and a lot more current games with max details in my screen's native 1600x900 resolution with Anti-Aliasing enabled (though not maxed). For RW3 I can run it with SSAA 2x2 on the default routes with around 20-22fps on medium settings, Horseshoe Curve is 18-20 but NEC is close to impossible to get run fluently even with AA turned off. Also I observed that it makes no difference to change the shadow quality from medium to low or vice versa. Turning shadows off gives another 2 or 3 frames more, but really takes out a lot of atmosphere. I played around with other settings, the only thing with an influence was the shader quality. Again changing medium to low got a few frames, but nothing serious. How come those options have almost no influence to the performance?

system details:
Windows 7 Ultimate 64 Bit
Gigabyte EP45-DS3 motherboard
Intel Core2Duo E8400, 3,0 GHz
Sapphire Radeon HD 4870, 512 MB, Catalyst driver version 11.9 (current)
4 GB Kingston DDR3 RAM
The Windows efficiency index states 5.9 because of my HDD, 3D power is set on 7.5

RailWorksProc2 2011-10-14 20-05-36-86.jpg

AA turned off = 14fps on "The Keystone", another train in sight = dia-show :(
SSAA 2x2 Hagen-Siegen = ~20-25fps, rain or shine no difference..., other trains not a problem though fps drop a little when passing by
changing settings in the ingame menu = almost no change in fps

[g_nash]

whatcha got running in the background?

You tell me ..

Installed Drivers

Intel Mobo drivers,Soundcard Frivers,AMD drivers,Logitech drivers (G15 and MX Revolution) .... I did have Wacom Tablet drivers but since can cause problems I removed them .

Installed Software

Steam/Railworks and CCleaner , with the exception of FXAA ( to at least get rid of some of the jaggies ... and it's not possible for this to effect RW performance ) there is nothing else ..... and while it may be popular to disable services (and I do this myself) any serious testing should be done with an untouched OS.

The game runs like dog leavings , and I refuse to limit frames to 30 to hide software problems that should be fixed.

---------------------------------

Found some interesting comments from RS Derek here

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic. ... 6&start=15

.

[gtw5812]

Tori, I think it partially has to do with average gamers just being happy the game runs relatively smooth and can play with trains. Not caring about fps or microstutter, audio cuts, or pauses. They're more understanding a game has performance issues because their PC is 4 years old with a $125 graphics card. So in turn, notching down graphics and having no AA is accepted as "smooth" gameplay on a modern game in 2011 with 2007 hardware.

Then, the other half like me who basically treat PC building as a hobby. Spending a lot of money on top end hardware to have a "worry free" game play option at the highest and greatest seting of any game. I HATE system requirement "shopping" so I just build big money eating PCs to avoid it.

So when a game like TS 2012 comes along and I introduce it to a $750 top of the line video card, a $320 i7 at 4ghz, 8gb DDR3 on a $350 motherboard and I get 8fps scenarios, or jittery 20-30fps gameplay I and anyone else who builds systems like this is going to start pulling every alarm they can find and complain to death about it, it isn't right.

Even with my 5870s and i7 875k no game ever sent my PC in the corner to cry about it. It ate every game I threw at it for lunch. Except TS 2012. Which is now making my 6990 and i7 2600k go sit in the corner to cry about it. My OS's are clean ans well maintained, I'm OCD about useless junk running and my systray NOT looking like a bingo card of icons. :)

This is interesting.... The market, I would believe, would be the "average gamer". When a product is advertised with a minimum requirement, then the game should perform "average"..not on the low end. I have been "blasted" a couple of times here, like on other forums, by what I call...."game creator groupies". These guys are in it to make money. If they enjoy it, it is an added bonus. I make this point, because in any other market...say the automobile market....not everyone buys a mustang, or a corvette. However, all the mid, to lower end vehicles perform at highway speeds, and do what they are advertised to do. Yes, they are not off to the "races", but, give the average performance and do not travel down the freeway like a "dump truck". A lot of us do not dump our money into computers, that in 3 years will be worth $300. If you are into money spending...try John Deere. I assure you after playing around with your new hobby, 10 years down the road, you will get your money right back out of that "green machine". I do not run a low end computer. I have a Dell XPS 600 which I spec'd out with 4 GB, dual core, and a Nvida 7800GTX card. It runs a lot of games "max'ed out". I do not run RW3 to it's limits, but at an average. We should be able to start it up and run...not trouble shoot, reset...trouble shoot, reset..etc. Before all of this "update..2012" stuff, I ran to the max. Now that is not possible. I mess with other games, like "Farm Simulator", where crops grow, you set your AI helpers working, and then run 3 other pieces of machinery, and have no problems.."rain sleet, snow or hail". Maybe they should look at that game engine. Most of the models in there are highly detailed. I can run the NEC, it is just not up to the standards I am use to...which to me is unacceptable as a paying customer.

One last thing. I believe that the folks at RS should work more on physics, braking and signaling. I run trains for a living, and I will say, a lot of this is off, but it has already been mentioned...

Just my thoughts...not out to "flame" anyone.

Best Regards,

Galen

[Toonces]

Tori, I think it partially has to do with average gamers just being happy the game runs relatively smooth and can play with trains. Not caring about fps or microstutter, audio cuts, or pauses. They're more understanding a game has performance issues because their PC is 4 years old with a $125 graphics card. So in turn, notching down graphics and having no AA is accepted as "smooth" gameplay on a modern game in 2011 with 2007 hardware.)

I think there is a lot to this. People who paid out big bucks for a high-end video card want all of the fancy things that TS2012 can provide. Those with minimal cards don't care much about rain, shadows, lights, etc, and just want to be able to experience the thing in any way they can.

I have kind of a middle card - a GTX 460. At the moment, I have most of the settings cranked up to the highest level, but I oftentimes see poor frame rates. At some point, I might back it off a little bit to fine tune this a bi..

[MugHug]

I assume that TS2012 uses DirectX but I just wanted to confirm this. for some reason I was thinking the situation reminded me of issues with OpenGL I have seen elsewhere.

[g_nash]

I assume that TS2012 uses DirectX but I just wanted to confirm this. for some reason I was thinking the situation reminded me of issues with OpenGL I have seen elsewhere.

RW3 is using DirectX 9 Deferred Rendering , and therefore no AA . SSAA methods ( 1x2 2x1 2x2 3x3 ) are costly and somewhat antiquated given that more effient methods exist .

.

[MugHug]

Is there any info or links detailing the graphics engine and the development history, etc.?

[styckx]

You can read all about Deferred Shading here: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_shading

[g_nash]

Is there any info or links detailing the graphics engine and the development history, etc.?

None that I'm aware of .. History of the Game Renderer would go back to Kujus development of the Engine , not much has changed until now ( RW3 ) some things are fairly old I think . The 3ds Max plugins go back as far as 2002 ( can check and post a screenie if you want ) the ACE graphic format used in the process of getting models into RW is the similar/same as used in MSTS , it's a Kuju proprietary format :) . Financial difficulties with the orignal release of RailSimulator and the hand over of code to what is now RS.com were/are hidden about the web ... We out don't know much of the real history I guess , and doubtful we ever will .

edited to clarify a point

[MugHug]

Thanks very much and appreciated.

Kinda interesting to learn more about my favorite sims. You have given me some pointers to search around.

Regards

[Toripony]

Intel Mobo drivers,Soundcard Frivers,AMD drivers,Logitech drivers (G15 and MX Revolution) .... I did have Wacom Tablet drivers but since can cause problems I removed them .

Installed Software

Steam/Railworks and CCleaner , with the exception of FXAA ( to at least get rid of some of the jaggies ... and it's not possible for this to effect RW performance ) there is nothing else ..... and while it may be popular to disable services (and I do this myself) any serious testing should be done with an untouched OS.

Yea, I think you guys hit on the reasons for the oddity I observed... it's about investment and expectation. True that mine is not that high. Besides, I've been through too many product upgrades/releases to expect very much from any computer or software.

Anything that takes a CPU tick affects performance to some tiny degree. Do you have an anti-virus running? A firewall? Are you maintaining a network connection to a printer or ftp site or some other device (I had a Dell drivers for a wireless printer hogging my CPU every few minutes). I have a real-time backup software that uses a constant 10-13% of one logical CPU. If I don't lock it to one CPU it bogs down TS/RW every 2 minutes.

Obviously, you've eliminated anything intermittent though... those are easy to find. And if you have 8 logical CPU's at 90+% idle, then it wouldn't seem to be about sharing processor time. A/V software takes a look at every file you open (depending on your configuration); I get rid of stuff like that. I run my firewall on my gateway machine so I don't have to run it on my desktop (not that it has anything to do with RW). I've tried shutting down services sometimes; seldom makes any difference; those are mostly just using memory space unless they're busy doing something. Have you tinkered with your PC hardware settings? I have write-caching enabled on my hard drives (since it's a laptop with battery backup). Other than that, I've found that factory default settings on everything gives me the best TS performance. That shocks me!

Anyway, that's the kind of ideas I wanted to toss out there. Look at some of the mundane stuff we run so commonly that we've forgotten about it. Another thought... everyone always touts the latest drivers but sometimes older drivers perform better with some products. My video drivers are getting old by now... a year and a half I think... I can't update them with the ATI drivers, only ASUS drivers. No worry; it's working fine.

Just food for thought for those who are still .

[g_nash]

Do you have an anti-virus running? A firewall? Are you maintaining a network connection to a printer or ftp site or some other device (I had a Dell drivers for a wireless printer hogging my CPU every few minutes). I have a real-time backup software that uses a constant 10-13% of one logical CPU. If I don't lock it to one CPU it bogs down TS/RW every 2 minutes.

Nope , on this install .. no printer , no scanner , no backup software ( no fraps either ) .. in short ,nothing at all that could be a problem , other than what's installed by MS ,, and I'm using the old fashion method of preventing intrusion/extrusion of nasties >> I remove the cat5 cable

Seriously , I don't have a problem with not getting in excess of 100fps on routes loaded with rolling stock and scenery for miles , I do understand how things work with regards to content in the virtual world, but, I really have a problem with driving at a comfortable 50-60fps on a reasonably populated route and having the bottom drop out and be left juddering and jerking along at 15fps or less until the engine sorts itself out and gets back to work . I simply cannot excuse that at all , it's wrong and it needs sorting , masking the problem by limiting performance won't make the problem go away . If this limiting needs to be temp solution while real work is done so be it , fact is that I see this as happy people saying nothing means that others can turn a blind eye .. an attitude that's all too common with software devs in general .imho.