Dodgy physics

[Dan]

I'm not sure that is either true or very fair about RS.

The reality is that people who really care about physics are a minority, much like people who obsess about track, frogs, rivets etc etc. This is not to say that it is not worth striving for but to say RS don't care or don't know about US operations is a little bit presumptive.

More to the point you can have some much reality that the game would be completely impossible to play.

[GaryG]

Okay let's clear up a couple of items.

#1 In the real world Independent brakes only apply on the first locomotive. Some games may have figured out how to get them to go to all the locos. That is not prototype. So if you want to run right...first loco only.

Hi Nick

Am I reading the following incorrectly?

"In the cab, we will assume the units are equipped with 26L brakes, as most are today. In the lead unit, everything will stay the same regarding the air brakes. In a trailing unit, you have to select whether you want the brakes controlled from the unit you are in, or from another unit. The MU-2A valve is located on the side of the control stand below the feed valve. It can be either a knob or a lever. In the "Lead or Dead" position, the independent brakes are controlled from this unit. In "Trail" position, the independent brakes are controlled through the mu hoses from another unit. Failure to position this valve properly can result in sticking or inoperative locomotive brakes."

This quote is from "http://www.railway-technical.com/us-musp.shtml".

GaryG

[Kali]

I'm not sure that is either true or very fair about RS.

The reality is that people who really care about physics are a minority, much like people who obsess about track, frogs, rivets etc etc. This is not to say that it is not worth striving for but to say RS don't care or don't know about US operations is a little bit presumptive.

More to the point you can have some much reality that the game would be completely impossible to play.

I think, to a point, people generally don't care about detailed physics until they experience detailed physics - increased levels of immersion don't necessarily mean "hard". I would also say that a train simulator does need something detailed in the simulation, because you're not distracted by trying to stay in the air like a flightsim ( or I guess procedures if you're flying an airliner ) or trying to drive faster than someone else like a racing sim. Unless you get your kicks from creation or puzzle solving ( switching ) then if trains don't behave differently to each other, and if they're rather basic in operation then what's going to keep you around after you've mastered a simple physics model? or at least what's going to keep you buying new ever-more-similar DLC, too.

The other issue I get concerned about is not implementing every last real-world detail, but that what's there should behave predictably as it would in the real world; that's a primary tenet of immersion for simulators. Having trains roll down a hill facing one direction and not roll facing the other way ( as an example ) is something that will seem odd to someone who doesn't know anything about physics at all, because they can fall down a hill no matter what way they're facing.

And last, is it not a good thing to think "hey, I don't know how to drive this train", go find a real manual online somewhere, and be able to use it?

[MikeK]

I'm not sure that is either true or very fair about RS.

The reality is that people who really care about physics are a minority, much like people who obsess about track, frogs, rivets etc etc. This is not to say that it is not worth striving for but to say RS don't care or don't know about US operations is a little bit presumptive.

More to the point you can have some much reality that the game would be completely impossible to play.

As I said, I do not question their abilities or commitment to the product. Some very talented people, no doubt. I just believe that their priorities for developing this product are not the same as my priorities. If I had to chose between re-doing the graphics engine or re-doing the physics model for TS2012 I would have chosen physics, but I understand why that product would not sell as well. Working on the graphics engine rather than the core simulation is a business decision, I get that.

But I disagree that improving the modelling of the train's behaviour and systems would make it impossible to play. If that were the case then it would be impossible for real trains to do their thing. In fact, I see far more whacky derailments and weirdness in the sim than I ever hear about in real life! I am pretty sure that when a crew has to couple their locomotives to a stationary cut of cars, they are not worried about the possibility of the whole thing accelerating out of control, or a cut of cars sitting 3 siding over just randomly flying into the air!

The reality is that unlike MSTS, the majority of the RW customers are interested in British passenger operations, and the physics model in the game is good enough to simulate that experience. If the RW team neglects that customer base then the future of the whole product is probably at risk. I am not giving up hope though. If the RW people can see enough threads like this then perhaps we will see some real improvements going forward.

[Dan]

Kali - I agree with you. As you say, immersion is the key element. My issue is that physics is a little bit like the various other hobby horses that different groups have. I think a lot of users have slightly selective ideas as to what 'realism' is - and it is the issue of striking a balance between playability and accessibility. I seem to recall complaints from people when they set the deadmans to go off every 30 seconds. 'Too much realism' was one complaint from someone at TS who normally spends his time complaining about frogs and wire height.

MikeK - The comment about UK passenger operations is incorrect. The fact is that the UK physics are not very real world either, so trying to make it a 'Brits don't understand America' argument is flawed. Physics in the game across the board are imperfect.

I am not anti-physics, the more realism and prototypical the better as far as I am concerned.

[TrainMaster1]

The MU-2A value is a double ported Cutout Valve that sets up as the following:

The handle for the MU-2A cutout ** is spring-loaded; push it in before changing positions.
The MU-2A valve has three positions:

LEAD or DEAD—Engages control of the independent brakes. Use when a locomotive is a single unit, a
controlling unit, or is being hauled dead-in-tow (DEAD setting here)

TRAIL 6 or 26—Disconnects control of the independent brakes from the independent brake valve. Use
when a locomotive is a trailing unit in a multiple-unit consist.

TRAIL 24—Disconnects control of the independent brakes from the independent brake valve. Use when
a locomotive is a trailing unit in a multiple-unit consist.

The double-ported cutout ** has two positions:

IN—Engages control of the independent brakes on a single locomotive or on the controlling locomotive
of a multiple-unit consist.
Use IN also when a locomotive is hauled dead-in-tow.

OUT—Disconnects control of the independent brakes from the independent brake valve.
Use OUT when a locomotive is trailing in a multiple-unit consist.

So to sum up only one unit at a time is ever cut in to control Independent Brakes and that is usually the unit you are operating from. The MU-2a disengages or engages the Independent depending on train/crew needs and conditions.

Don't be too hard on the game developers. They realize about a very small number of people is actually interested in being an "engineer". The majority are comfortable playing a game. We when started VORA we knew we were in the minority of wanting to run by the book and follow prototype practice. All sims limit us in this but we have added many features and lots of training to get you as close as humanly possible. As new features (that are worthwhile) are added that only makes the experience better.

I hope this helps explain a little more about Independent Brake systems. One more point...you should only ever engage Independent brakes on downhill trains when...you are below DB operating range (varies from loco to loco) but about 6 to 8 mph or when you need everything you have so you do not end up a casualty. As a train slows under 8 mph the motors have slowed also and so provide less resistance. Take them to zero and make your independent application at a minimum setting needed to control and or stop the train. If not stopping...leave the DB in set up in case needed (they are giving a little something still but not much) and you will be in position to be ready if the grade runs away from you again.

Are we having fun yet? You have not experienced what a sim really can do.....

Nick

[Kali]

Kali - I agree with you. As you say, immersion is the key element. My issue is that physics is a little bit like the various other hobby horses that different groups have. I think a lot of users have slightly selective ideas as to what 'realism' is - and it is the issue of striking a balance between playability and accessibility. I seem to recall complaints from people when they set the deadmans to go off every 30 seconds. 'Too much realism' was one complaint from someone at TS who normally spends his time complaining about frogs and wire height.

MikeK - The comment about UK passenger operations is incorrect. The fact is that the UK physics are not very real world either, so trying to make it a 'Brits don't understand America' argument is flawed. Physics in the game across the board are imperfect.

I am not anti-physics, the more realism and prototypical the better as far as I am concerned.

To be fair there's a line between "immersion" and "unnecessary annoyance", and imo enforced DSD/deadmans are a step too far; nobody is going to die if you crash in this case, and I personally don't want to hit the spacebar every 30s for a few hours :) That is just my own personal thing though. If I lose attention I'll hit the pause button instead.

And yeah, everybody's physics are in the same boat, it's just sometimes more noticeable in the US because of the systems involved. You're not ever going to get perfect physics in a commercial game, though. What you're looking for is enough to give the player the feeling they're an engineer for a couple of hours, and in my view also the sense that they've achieved something outside of their normal experience ( unless they're a real life engineer, of course... then you want to make them feel like they're at work :P ).

Incidentally I'm reading a Wabtek glossy brochure & they talk of "higher loaded braking ratios of between 11 and 14%". I'll knock up a loaded coal car with that sort of level so people can play with that also.

[Dan]

Totally agree with you. I am pretty sure that a game which kicked you out or failed you everytime you broke an operating rule would have a very very very small audience.

[TrainMaster1]

Exactly right, Dan. When we put our little group together we found people who were more interested in running a railroad than playing a game (again a minority). But we put enough of the main rules into place so you are totally immersed in running a real consist on a route faithfully representing a Class One Line at some point in the last 50-60 years up to modern day. We keep the enjoyment high and the nit-picking drivel low. Very few things get you kicked out of the group as our goal is to give you what you need to be successful and enjoy being part of an organization. We cover those items in the first five minutes of training.

We have room for about 60-75 people from any one simulator in a session. Once those people sign up and are ready, just like a real railroad we will stop "hiring". That includes dispatchers, yardmasters, trainmasters, Maintenance Of Way, Communications & Signaling, a Roadforeman, Conductors and Engineers (yep a lot of our trains have two person crews when they have work to do and they can actually work together and see everything in real time). We also have lots of behind the scenes people creating signal charts for crews to use in sessions, plus research on symbols, consists and trains that ran on that line at that time. When we run a session everything (all equipment, systems, track control, etc) is set in the appropriate time frame. So if we are on Horseshoe in 1979....please do not think of asking the Trainmaster (not me) if you can run a GEVO.

We know that many just want to run for an hour or so, really do not care if the train is right in terms of length, weight or era. So we set up our system to include runs from 1 to 12 hours. Yes we actually have had crews outlaw on the clock from exceeding hours of service. For the person who wants to enhance their understanding of railroads and get more out a sim, then it is worthwhile to have discussions like this one. Kali, is right that no sim will ever really get close to getting it all right...if they did the price would be much higher and the ability for anybody to create equipment or design a route would be impossible.

So have fun and enjoy it as it is right now. I enjoy my role as the STO in our group as it allows me to keep my now older and smarter thumb in "railroading" because I have had enough of railroading. Still hope there are a few RW people ready to try their hand at running in a prototype session. We are mapping our first route now and plan to be running in November. I am going to be honest with you, there are classes (2 each of 2 hours) plus 2 mini operating sessions where you get to put into action what you have learned. Those who do well earn one of the 60 or so slots on the extra board and can bid on trains in any operating session where you own that simulator. Once you do well as an engineer, you can learn the conductors job. Do well there and we will train you in any RR role we have in a session.

I love talking about how it actually gets done and to see how it can be done on the sim. This has been a great thread and it is people like all of you that encouraged me to open our group up to new sims because I see how much you enjoy doing what you do. We can take that to a whole different level for you if you wish.

Thanks for reading.

Nick

[Kali]

Back to tech questions again.

Over here there's no difference in brake force - and by extension brake cylinder pressure - between a full service application and emergency - the difference is just the rate the air is dumped out of the control pipe and obviously that you can much more easily release the brakes for a full service application. Is that so for the US?

Also, say you're on a 2% grade and you make an emergency application ( or even full-service ); what sort of deceleration will you expect?

[TrainMaster1]

Have you ever been in or around when a train goes into emergency? It is the equivalent of slamming your foot on the brakes in a car except you can take your foot of the brake in a car while a train cannot. You lose adhesion virtually immediately and become a gigantic missile.

On a 2% grade (up or down?) depending on what your speed was when the emergency occurs dictates what you will experience. Without belaboring the point, if your train was under control and moving slow enough you remain on the track and everybody goes home. If you were overspeed and the train was not blocked properly, the conductor immediately hands out the sheet music to "Nearer My God to Thee". Also that is true on flat ground too. I have seen engineers create massive derailments and millions in damage by not controlling their train properly.

Is your train blocked properly with loads, empties and dangerous spaced properly? Tankcars are especially annoying to stop as the liquid sloshes back and forth and creates its own set of problems. What is in front of you and how much stopping distance do you have? I personally have been in the cab when more than one occurrence of "Let me Run Around The Gates" games happened. Yes I was the first one off and found the "former contestants". We stayed on the rails that time....the auto did not.

So to answer your question we'll can us the worst scenario....all empties on the head end of your trains and loads at the rear. You will derail and block any adjacent tracks. If moving fast enough the loads will drive the empties right at your locomotives. Your scenario is definitely over but you live to play another day.

The main reasons for going into "emergency" are a broken knuckle, air hose problems or improper air brake handling and getting a penalty application. Numbers three and four are the easiest to recover from as the others require replacing the knuckle or hose....enjoy your walk Mr. Conductor.

Grades are why railroads set maximum lengths, speeds, TOB ratings, weights, power axle ratings and more. There are so many variables that exist depending on what is in the train, is it under control, is it blocked right, etc. that you can never get all of them into a sim. You should know the railroads limitations when you create scenarios so that they are "realistic" for the route. There are so many rules on empty wells and spine cars alone that can turn creating a scenario into a part time job. That is overkill in my little book. When it comes to prototype, I am nuts but I am not crazy. There is a limit beyond which that mowing the lawn or painting the house becomes a better use of my time.

Keep those questions coming ....

Nick

[Dan]

For me it is about the whole package.

You can have great physics but if the operating structures are all over the shop then you don't get the full benefit.

For example in the real world you would never have empties in front of loads. Distribution of train weight obviously impacts on the way the train performs/reacts to certain situations ie going into emergency. You could have great physics but if the consist is put together in an unrealistic way then it is just as unrealistic as if you had the original physics from MSTS.

The next element for this is signalling, often when people are given a switching task they end up making up their train in an unprototypical manner because they are limited by the signalling which means that they get umpteen spads and so on and so forth. So of course to make up the train and get it on its way they just do the switching in the shortest way possible.

But I accept that this is totally down to my preferences and what I enjoy. I am not sure that everyone else would enjoy spending 2 hours making up a train into prototypical order when it could be done in 15 minutes in an unprototypical manner.

I do think that a lot of people are actually quite ignorant about what is 'good practice' when it comes to railroad operation and actually driving their trains in a prototypical manner, which is why I think so basic introduction to prototypical operations type scenarios would be very useful.

[Kali]

Have you ever been in or around when a train goes into emergency? It is the equivalent of slamming your foot on the brakes in a car except you can take your foot of the brake in a car while a train cannot. You lose adhesion virtually immediately and become a gigantic missile.

I have: I lost a tooth :p not because of the stopping power, given it's not unknown for passenger trains here to use full-service, but mostly because it got there fast and I couldn't grab anything. From that I'm going to assume emergency is somewhat beyond normal maximum brakeforce ( and also why is stock set up to lock wheels? ).

Why I'm asking is because I want to know what sort of deceleration to expect for say, 80 laden coal cars on a 2% downgrade if I eventually made a full-service application. RW default cars will haul up extremely fast - these are the ones people have complained about in this thread as having too much brakeforce - and the ones I have currently for testing will stop ... eventually, if you throw the controller in emergency, otherwise the whole consist meanders down hill until I start using DB.

[arizonachris]

Kali, I have run pretty much every kind of consist in North America (well, at least on the routes I have) and with my method of applying brakes, prototypical or not, I can lose 10MPH per .1 miles. Loaded, unloaded; intermodal, coal, passenger, mixed, tankers; diesel or steam. Long as I know the route (third time's a charm!) I can stop right at your door. So, if I'm going 40mph, I start applying brakes at .4 miles until my next stop. Gradually increasing brakes (train brakes only, usually) This is what I am now coming to find out, the physics don't seem to differentiate between types of consist or loaded/ unloaded. It's all the same as far as the game is concerned. Yeah, I'm starting to think of it more as a game.

All of this new information is really great, tho. I've learned more in the last few days that in the year or more that I have owned RW. I know the difference between the dynamic, the independent and the train brakes. Speaks a lot for the community we have here. OK, I think I'm gonna just run a few short scenarios to have fun. Been testing too much the past two days.

[TrainMaster1]

Dan:"For example in the real world you would never have empties in front of loads."

You can have empties in front of based on block preference, crew laziness, plain good old stupidity and incorrect paperwork for just a few reasons. Case in point on CSX, a new engineer qualifying on the territory takes a train from the yard and does not check his paperwork (strike one). A few miles into the trip he is told to take the siding to make way for a North bound train who will have the main. He forgets that 30 minutes earlier his leader was a set of light engines. He loses track of their last signal call (always know where your leader is) so strike two. Why because they are in the same siding ahead of him now and he cannot stop in time so he is forced to dump the air. The loads turn the train into an accordion and block the main. The North Bound runs right into the mess and now everybody is on the ground including the light units that he hit when he could not stop. So strike three and game over. All because of empties in front of loads.


Dan: "The next element for this is signalling, often when people are given a switching task they end up making up their train in an unprototypical manner because they are limited by the signalling which means that they get umpteen spads and so on and so forth. So of course to make up the train and get it on its way they just do the switching in the shortest way possible."

Signaling would only affect a train needing headroom in a yard or permission past a yard signal. This often happens in a session and is quite prototypical. I will ask the crew first do they need one pass or more and if I have a clear main I will bring them out under either a 241 permission past stop signal or whatever we need to based upon the era. Many of our trains work in sessions so this can happen to more than one train in a session. Not sure what a spad is though that is a new one.

Dan: "But I accept that this is totally down to my preferences and what I enjoy. I am not sure that everyone else would enjoy spending 2 hours making up a train into prototypical order when it could be done in 15 minutes in an unprototypical manner."

Agreed 100 % Dan. That is why we know not everyone will come flocking to our sessions. You run correctly or not at all with us. Lots of guys opt for not all. That does not make them bad people. They just want different things from the sim than we do.

Dan: "I do think that a lot of people are actually quite ignorant about what is 'good practice' when it comes to railroad operation and actually driving their trains in a prototypical manner, which is why I think so basic introduction to prototypical operations type scenarios would be very useful."

I could not agree more which is why I have invited RW players who want to learn and to run in our sessions to begin down that path with us. That starts by listening to a session first...see if it is something you really want to do. If you like it sign up for the Intro Events and Mini sessions. The Intros are on 11/3 (part I) and 11/6 (part II) from 8 to 10 pm eastern time. Then on 11/28 and 11/30 we will be holding our first RW mini sessions to qualify new engineers. You get to test out what you learned and run with real live dispatchers, yardmasters and more. People who make it through can participate in the RW Main session on 12/3. You can also participate in any session where you own the sim once you are qualified.

We are looking for people who want to develop prototype routes and scenarios in RW right now. The training is invaluable in getting you closer to that goal and makes a real difference even when you are running on your own outside of a session.

Quick addition for Kali: Emergency does lock the wheels on the prototype. You just go skidding along until you run out of energy or hit something that stops you. Ouch on losing a tooth by the way. Probably someone or something jumping in front of the passenger train caused a sudden application. Hard to say what deceleration would be as rail condition, weather, grade, weight, straight versus curved track are just a few of the variables in that equation. It is far above normal brake force though.

Nick