Elvis (SMM) has left the building

[fecrails]

If we keep loosing freeware developers I won't have a reason to stay in the game any longer.

When I read the news that Hawk was steping down from here I was very surprised and disappointed. Now Jerry is leaving too. Two big losses to the NA RW community in one week.
Funny thing, I just started with RW about June of this year and two of the big reasons I did was this site and all of Hawk's hard work providing us with this place and Jerry's awesome work with his creations filling a big void in RSC's NA content. A great example; the RSC level crossing signals are absolutely terrible, Jerry's look awesome! I was planning on using them to develop a route I have in mind, but since I have not downloaded them, obviously I won't be using them.

I'll shelve the route now, as good prototypical NA level crossing signals were a big part of my route plans.

[buzz456]

The signals and such will be available somewhere. Let's not panic. There is no better people than Bob and Papa so this forum will continue in fine fashion. As far as what RSC is concerned I think hurling accusations at them at every turn does little good. It would be much more productive to write a reasoned concerned letter to them about what you would like to see done differently in the future. All of the problems I experienced were in scenarios, the routes were all intact, as was the the rolling stock. That in itself was a huge improvement from the update of 2012 where most of the rolling stock had to be redone.
It's so easy to get on a forum and do a rant. It is much more difficult to look for and find solutions to problems.

End of lecture.

Buzz

[fecrails]

There is no better people than Bob and Papa

I totally agree!

Please don't anyone construe my comments in a negative way toward them at all. I'm very grateful for their hard work carrying the torch forward and keeping this forum alive!

Thanks Bob and Papa!

[artimrj]

No problem fecrails, if you need the crossing gates, let me know or you can get them from the NERW assets. I used them to as they are the best.

[glenn68]

My thoughts, I agree with SMM to a point. What really needs to happen RSC has to do a much better job a public relations and listen to public input. I would assume thy have a PR person, so one of those jobs is to keep the public informed and let everyone know what is exactly going to happen in their upgrades and changes. This will allow the public to ask or give input and or give time to make changes. We all know that content drives RSC. Some folks out there (like me) can afford some of the pay DLC but there is folks out there like SMM who also provides us with content that meets our needs and for those who cant always afford the pay DLC. I feel that RSC should be in contact with outside developers to keep the continance of RSC going. I have not gone in and totally checked, but I do have SMM's route installed and a good amount of his assets.I will check it out tonight.
Hopefully Jerry will reconsider and come back into the game, the more US content the better.

Glenn

[Derek]

Hi,

I'm not here to jump into a debate, but any 3rd party creators can always email Support@railsimulator.com to request information or clarification on any subjects regarding payware.
We have a 3rd party manager who can answer the questions and advise.

regards

Derek

[philmoberg]

I'm sorry the frustration got to him. Having been through the Chattanooga area several times in the late-'60s and early-'70s, I can say the NSAND really captured the feel of the area in a way few simulator routes have. He has the makings of one of the very best. I completely get the frustration with the repeated changes in the RW platform: it's like trying to hit a randomly moving target, at times. OTOH, there are bound to be displacements as the current owners work through the awkward architecture remaining from the original KRS platform. Those of you who were around in the run-up to the first MSTS2 may remember the discussion of what would be broken and what wouldn't, as well as the lively discussions (primarily on another forum) that those announcements caused.

For me, at least, the broader concern is the frequent changes in the EULA. There is nothing more effective at shutting down investment in any business than knowing that the rules of the game are not stable over the long term. I'm no lawyer, to be sure, but the trajectory of certain changes in the EULA, combined with some of the creative interpretation I've seen in in the courts, and particularly in administrative law (where the rules of the game are much different, at least in U.S. practice) leave me with some reluctance to dust off some of my old projects and complete them as RW4 models. That's a pity, because the growing availability of typical North American rolling stock as freeware and low-priced payware has materially improved RW's marketability in this very significant segment. IMO, it has improved it to the point that it clearly demonstrates that the original KRS decision to forego the North American market was, at best, extremely short-sighted.

It is difficult for me to see how a railroad simulator of any sort can continue to maintain a sufficiently broad user base without a healthy, independent third party supplier base, to fill in all those market niches that are to small or specialised for the primary supplier to deal with economically. The user base is sufficiently different (primarily more complex and diverse) from the more common base of electronic gamers. Microsoft learned this with their wildly successful Flight Simulator series, and subsequently forgot it with it's more recent, short-lived Flight product. The lesson is plain enough that one would have to work at misunderstanding it.

On a personal note: thanks kindly Jerry. You offered us your best, and I appreciate it. I know I'm not alone in thinking so.

[glenn68]

See, Derek is here.
Derek, 2 questions for you;
1. Without letting the cat out of the bag, does RSC plan on more North American content? IE, routes and Locomotives?
2. Does RSC plan on making drastic changes to TS2013 that will have a negative effect on 3rd party developer's exisiting content?
Glenn

[glenn68]

I'm sorry the frustration got to him. Having been through the Chattanooga area several times in the late-'60s and early-'70s, I can say the NSAND really captured the feel of the area in a way few simulator routes have. He has the makings of one of the very best. I completely get the frustration with the repeated changes in the RW platform: it's like trying to hit a randomly moving target, at times. OTOH, there are bound to be displacements as the current owners work through the awkward architecture remaining from the original KRS platform. Those of you who were around in the run-up to the first MSTS2 may remember the discussion of what would be broken and what wouldn't, as well as the lively discussions (primarily on another forum) that those announcements caused.

For me, at least, the broader concern is the frequent changes in the EULA. There is nothing more effective at shutting down investment in any business than knowing that the rules of the game are not stable over the long term. I'm no lawyer, to be sure, but the trajectory of certain changes in the EULA, combined with some of the creative interpretation I've seen in in the courts, and particularly in administrative law (where the rules of the game are much different, at least in U.S. practice) leave me with some reluctance to dust off some of my old projects and complete them as RW4 models. That's a pity, because the growing availability of typical North American rolling stock as freeware and low-priced payware has materially improved RW's marketability in this very significant segment. IMO, it has improved it to the point that it clearly demonstrates that the original KRS decision to forego the North American market was, at best, extremely short-sighted.

It is difficult for me to see how a railroad simulator of any sort can continue to maintain a sufficiently broad user base without a healthy, independent third party supplier base, to fill in all those market niches that are to small or specialised for the primary supplier to deal with economically. The user base is sufficiently different (primarily more complex and diverse) from the more common base of electronic gamers. Microsoft learned this with their wildly successful Flight Simulator series, and subsequently forgot it with it's more recent, short-lived Flight product. The lesson is plain enough that one would have to work at misunderstanding it.

Well said.


Glenn

On a personal note: thanks kindly Jerry. You offered us your best, and I appreciate it. I know I'm not alone in thinking so.

[PapaXpress]

I never understood why people who ragequit from this community pull all their content from us to download. What point are you trying to make? RSC doesn't care, lol! You hurt us not them! I lost a ton of respect for SMM today, not gonna sugar coat that.

This wasn't a "ragequit". He was battling problems with his route since RW3 hit us. He pulled all his work down because he will not be renewing his server, and he wants the griefers to stop emailing him (started around RW3... surprised?). He and I have been talking. I have the source files for almost all his work. What I can post up I will, but I will also honor the sprit of his work. That said I can clearly state today that if NSAND cannot be made to run as a freeware addon to the base game, then I will not repost it. I am still planing on how to release his other work (signals, gates, and maybe buildings).

... You hurt us not them! I lost a ton of respect for SMM today, not gonna sugar coat that.

I've quoted you twice so I can be clear. He reached out to me so that the comunity would not lose his work.

[Hawk]

I never understood why people who ragequit from this community pull all their content from us to download. What point are you trying to make? RSC doesn't care, lol! You hurt us not them! I lost a ton of respect for SMM today, not gonna sugar coat that.

Read this post by Papa. That should help to explain it.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6578&p=70256#p70256

It's his work. He can do with it what he wants.

RSC doesn't care, lol!

I'm going to quote you twice also. It sounds to me like you don't care either. You want what you want and that's all there is to it, no matter what the developer thinks or feels.

[philmoberg]

... I lost a ton of respect for SMM today, not gonna sugar coat that.

While I take your point, I can't bring myself to agree with your conclusion. Jerry had a lot invested in the RW platform and in this forum, as well. There are sea lawyers in any group of people: it's the nature of human nature, and the odds are such that you're bound to run into a bunch of them behaving badly at any given time. Jerry was not one of these. He left the wood pile higher than he found it whenever he got involved in something, and we will all benefit from his contributions for some time to come. I would note that his tutorials have already been passed along to be posted somewhere else, for example. Knocking him because the frustration got to the red line doesn't seem - to me, at least - to be productive: at this point, all it is likely to accomplish is to diminish the likelihood that he would ever reconsider returning.

[PapaXpress]

I agree with him leaving, I don't blame him at all. I did my self back in july for a short time before I realized there really isn't anywhere else to go for me. But the fact that he just 100% pulls all his content (yes I know it is his content but there is this thing called ethics) just makes it seem like he is lashing out more than just simply leaving. It would have been a lot more sensible to put the files at RWA or somewhere on media fire and put links on these forums and THEN pull the stuff from his site, rather then saying "[good luck finding the stuff you need when you need it]".

Did you get a chance to read my response to you? Or Hawks? And for now, he is not moving to any other train sim. He is taking a break for all this leaglese, freeware vs payware vs "why haven't you fixed your scenarios yet?!". In short it stopped being a hobby for him.

A lot of routes and route makers need the things he made. I don't know exactly what his intentions were by doing this, but he seems like he knows exactly what he is doing and the effects to come because of it. I don't know a route that doesn't use some models from smm.

I find every bit of this childish.

He allowed thrid party creators to include his work in their packages as long as they were freeware, and they can still do that today so nothing has changed. In fact at one point he pulled everything down and made all of his work available in the NSAND package just to be conveinent.

[arizonachris]

Griefers in Railworks? Really? No rivet counters, either.

I have a lot of respect for Jerry. He's worked long and hard for this community. As has already been said, his creations can be found on almost any route in RW. And I fully understand why he needs to walk away for a while. And I agree. another update, everything broken, free assets now payware, It's all a big jumbled mess.

Take care, Jerry. Stop in and say hi once in a while. We'll miss you (well, I will at least)

[Rich_S]

I'm sorry to see Jerry leave but completely understand his point. My Montour route not only uses many of Jerry's assets, but also uses many of the default assets that are no longer available to new users / purchasers of Rail Works 4 Train Simulator 2013. If I can no longer freely distribute these assets with my route, then I also will have to stop all future development of my Montour route and any future planned routes. What's the point in distributing a freeware route that's as bare as the surface of the moon? Also I want to make a note, for those producing freeware or in Rail Simulator dot com terminology "User Generated Content" or UGC, you must now include the following text in all of your readme documents.

Code: Select all

"IMPORTANT NOTICE. This is user generated content designed for use with RailSimulator.com
Limited’s train simulation products, including RailWorks 4: Train Simulator 2013.
RailSimulator.com Limited does not approve or endorse this user generated content and does not
accept any liability or responsibility regarding it.
This user generated content has not been screened or tested by RailSimulator.com Limited.
Accordingly, it may adversely affect your use of RailSimulator.com’s products. If you install this
user generated content and it infringes the rules regarding user-generated content,
RailSimulator.com Limited may choose to discontinue any support for that product which they may
otherwise have provided.
The RailWorks EULA sets out in detail how user generated content may be used, which you can
review further here: www.railsimulator.com/terms. In particular, this user generated content
includes work which remains the intellectual property of RailSimulator.com Limited and which may
not be rented, leased, sub-licensed, modified, adapted, copied, reproduced or redistributed without
the permission of RailSimulator.com Limited."

There is also a section in the new EULA that states RSC can take your freeware asset and use it for their purposes. So, yes I completely understand Jerry's point and at this point I'm not sure if I'm going to continue forward creating routes for Rail Works 4, Train Simulator 2013.

Regards,
Rich S.