Advanced High Definition Locos in TS2015

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Definition "advanced" for me is true to life physics, handling and instrumentation.
Definition "high definition" for me is no corners rounded in the shape file and quality textures, no fuzz.

The first means handling, the second means appearance.

I am more interested in handling, Run8 has rubbed off on me.
For a loco with screens in the cab, that means all displays working at the level of Run8, or even the better MSTS models. It isn't that hard.
For a standard AAR control stand, that means all gauges working, PCS cutout, independent front and rear headlights, bright and dimmed. Again, not that hard to implement.
Proper 26L air brake characteristics: release, min reduction, service range to max reduction, suppression, emergency.
Appropriate sounds of all levers, switches and buttons in the cab, prototypical engine, track and wind noise, quillable horns.

Appearance is nice when outside the cab, or when staging photo shoots. But then the whole scene had to be "hifi", esp. in rain or snow.

[trev123]

The more things that you have working in a cab etc, the dearer the loco well be. Instead of paying $20 you might be paying $40. Take one aircraft for FSX say a Dash 8 you are paying about $50 for.

[mrennie]

The more things that you have working in a cab etc, the dearer the loco well be. Instead of paying $20 you might be paying $40. .

Not so. Look at how many working controls there are in the FEF-3, for example. Now look at the price. It costs exactly the same as the Big Boy. 'Nuff said.

Take one aircraft for FSX say a Dash 8 you are paying about $50 for.

FSX does indeed follow a very different business model.

[JerryC]

I also have to point out the GP40 there. A lot of controls work in the cab, outside the cab, even levers and such that some may not find at all useful. But we don't charge extra for those and the toilet.

Even though I have the GAME and occasionally enjoy playing it, i'm going to take a crack at Run 8 and the previous praise of it. You can praise it for it's controls and handling all day long, but it definitely isn't a "High Definition" sim. I hate the looks of it, to be totally honest, not much of an improvement over MSTS. And the fact that they are afraid their profit model will self-destruct if they open it to outside development is what keeps me running TS2015, for now. Some of us put more stock into actually building the trains than we do driving them.

Also, if you can say phrases such as "it isn't that hard", and "again, it isn't that hard to implement" while criticizing the works of others, then I suppose that you have the knowledge and the skills to produce a locomotive of your own? I'll be looking forward to critiquing that one for you.

[mrennie]

I agree with everything Jerry said.

I very, very rarely play the game, and when I do, it's usually just to test what I'm building.

I'll also stress that the "advanced" braking from DTG is rubbish.

[Buzz313th]

Mike, do mind explaining why you find the DTG brakes rubbish?

[mrennie]

Mike, do mind explaining why you find the DTG brakes rubbish?

If you watch the pressures in the F5 HUD and the gauge in the cab, you'll see what it does. For example, if you have the brakes set, let's say at 70psi (where 90psi releases them fully), on a long consist, and then release the brakes, you'll see that on the gauge the brake pipe pressure appears to rise slowly. However, in the F5 HUD you can see what's really happening - the core code brakes aren't actually released until after a delay that depends on the consist length. But then the core code handle (the one that the engine sim reads, not the one you see animated in the cab) is suddenly moved to release and kept there. The brake pipe pressure then rises at the rate set in the blueprint, which isn't dependent on the length of the consist. The script meanwhile controls the animation of the brake pipe pressure reading and makes it look as if it's steadily rising. However, it can be reading something like 76psi on the gauge but already have reached 90psi (brakes fully released) on the F5 HUD. Thus, the train starts to roll forwards (even with the throttle in idle, if it's on a slight downhill grade) because the sim thinks the brakes are completely off, even though you, watching the gauge, are wondering how that can be if the brakes are still set! I find that on a long consist, such as those in the NS Coal District scenarios, it causes the loco to suddenly jump forward as, after a delay, the brakes are quickly released (pressure suddenly rises to 90psi). Once I saw that, it ruined the experience for me and I stopped using the diesels.

From what I can see, it's basically a delay in moving the internal handle to release (or apply, if you're setting the brakes). The script doesn't seem to make any attempt at all to get the actual pressures (the ones that matter to the vehicle physics) on the F5 HUD to stay in synch with the readings on the gauge, which are just a con.

In the FEF-3, it's much more complicated. The script continually switches the internal "handle" between the different settings in order to make the core code (F5 HUD) pressures match as closely as possible to what is seen on the gauges (with the brake pipe pressure lagging behind the eq.res. pressure, where the lag depends on the length of the brake pipe). That way, if the brake pipe pressure on the gauge is such that there should still be some braking (not fully released), the F5 HUD will show that same pressure (+/- a tiny bit) and so you will indeed have the corresponding amount of physical braking. The FEF-3 also tries to simulate engine brake bail-off with the spring-loaded bail-off position, the visible movement of the brake rigging on the loco and tender when you bail off, and of course the fact that you can see the brake cylinder pressure needle drop to zero while the train brakes are still set (brake pipe pressure low). It even has the Wilma that shows the pressure at the end of the train (coming from the FRED), simulating the pressure wave propagation time. Unfortunately, what it still can't do (because of limitations of the core code) is have the physical effect of braking when the brake pipe pressure at the head end is at maximum (brakes on the first cars released) but the pressure shown on the Wilma is less (brakes on cars further down the consist still set). The DTG diesels don't have any of that.

By the way, at the moment, there's a little bug in the FEF-3 - when running light engine, if you apply the engine brakes while the train brakes are released, it doesn't generate the braking force at the correct rate. Instead the max brake cylinder pressure is reached and the wheels lock up and skid before there's enough real force to slow down the locomotive. It's a value in the blueprint that I forgot to adjust, but I've already got a patch for that and it should be released soon on Steam, alone with the "Patch 1" that's here on RWA.

[Buzz313th]

So Mike,

I appreciate and respect your work as I own your UP FEF..

Although the DTG brake system isn't perfect, I firmly believe it is a huge improvement over all the other Locos that don't have a custom scripted brake system such as your FEF...

At least the DTG brakes roughly simulate the effects that train length have on brake pipe and main res equalization time.. Personally I wish there was a way to upgrade the rest of my engines..

JB

[mrennie]

So Mike,

I appreciate and respect your work as I own your UP FEF..

Although the DTG brake system isn't perfect, I firmly believe it is a huge improvement over all the other Locos that don't have a custom scripted brake system such as your FEF...

At least the DTG brakes roughly simulate the effects that train length have on brake pipe and main res equalization time.. Personally I wish there was a way to upgrade the rest of my engines..

JB

Thanks JB

It's subjective, I realise, but I would respectfully disagree that it's a huge improvement. IMHO, it's a minor improvement that could have been done a lot better. They should have done what I did (or they could have asked me to do it for them).


Mike

[dtrainBNSF1]

Soooooooo...does that mean that the brake physics for the Canadian Mountain Passes route is also garbage? DTG based their "new" brake physics off of the work the Milepost Simulations did for their Canadian route (at least I think it was Milepost Simulations that developed it).

I don't own the route. Just curious.

[Buzz313th]

Not sure about who came up with the brake physics.. But roughly a few days after someone mentioned Run8 I transitioned to Run 8 and haven't loojed back.

[mrennie]

Soooooooo...does that mean that the brake physics for the Canadian Mountain Passes route is also garbage? DTG based their "new" brake physics off of the work the Milepost Simulations did for their Canadian route (at least I think it was Milepost Simulations that developed it).

I don't own the route. Just curious.

Yep, they're the same.

[Captainbob]

I spent a few months with Run 8 and added everything that was available, all the routes, rolling stock, etc. After learning how to run the trains, I quickly discovered that the only way to have any fun at all with Run 8 was to get involved with Multiplayer. Single Player on Run 8, once you get the hang of controlling the trains, was about as exciting as watching paint dry. Routes all look the same, no weather, no AI, no scenery to speak of, just desert and bushes. I got the Florida Route, and that was just a constant line of trees on either side of the tracks with an occasional building or a platform here and there. Having to rely on multiplayer has it's own set of problems in my opinion, you have to adjust your schedule to when someone is on Multiplayer, otherwise you log into the server and you are the only one there just like in single player. Sometimes in multiplayer if there are only a couple of other people running which is often, you can go for over 100 miles and see not one other train. Up one side of a mountain at 20 miles an hour for an hour, and down the other side at 25 miles an hour for an hour, not very exciting. The MP sessions get quite a few players, but they only happen every couple of weeks at most, and when there are alot of players, you may sit on a siding waiting to get on the mainline for an hour, because of the traffic, and single track routes. One time it took me over 3 hours to travel about 40 miles during a session, about half the time sitting on a siding staring at the desert. As far as reality and physics go, there are some things better on Run 8, but it also has some pretty unrealistic aspects too. You can run a train at 90 miles an hour over a switch that is turned against you, and nothing happens, you keep going like the switch wasn't even there. Same with speeding around a sharp curve or onto a siding at 90 mph, don't know of any real train that can do that. On multiplayer, if someone couples a train with a bit too much speed, and breaks a coupler, the server crashes, your train disappears, and everyone has to stop until the server gets rebooted, and then start again. BTW. I have implemented some of the physics patches for some of the locomotives I have, that I got from this site, and I find the braking on the modified locos to be reasonably close to what I had on Run 8. I am not looking to start a career at the railroad, using a PC sim, as a training ground, I just want to run some trains in a fairly realistic setting, and for me TS 2015, after several years with Trainz, time with Run 8, and over three decades with different versions of MSFS, fills the bill. I love running the career scenarios and trying to score 1000, and to me that's exciting.

I finally decided I was done with Run8 , and got TS2015, and love running the different trains, running in Europe one day, and Marias Pass or the North East line the next, running through a snow storm, or on a rainy day. Today I ran a 1 hour route out of London with a High speed train and saw about 20 AI trains during my one hour trip. I didn't have to wait and see if anyone was on the server before I ran my train, just start a Scenario and go. Meanwhile my Run 8 and Raildriver are both gathering dust. Wish I could sell it and get some of my $220 back.

[Buzz313th]

Lol.. Really sounds like Run8 isn't for you.

If you like to run prototypical trains Run 8 is really the only choice. Each player is represented by an avatar dressed in a road construction crew vest. When working yards or switches, setting up a team of power you get outa the cab and virtually set the train up. In Multiplayer you have a conducter work with you. Combine team speak and the other players and its a great time.

Every time We log onto the dams server there are at least 10 ppl there and this weekend I ran 2 organized sessions with atleast 15 ppl. You have a human dispatcher, and people conjugate in roughly the same subdivision

[buzz456]

The topic (See Above) is about high definition Locos in TS2015. Let's stay on topic.