New York Division-Bergen Line

[buzz456]

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locolist.aspx?id=DLW

[jalsina]

Minerman146,
(About speed limits)

The Bergen route has this setting in the RouteProperties.xml:
<HasSpeedsigns d:type="bool">1</HasSpeedsigns>
This code is located in the final part of the code.
When you clone or create a route from scratch that value is set to 1 always.

This is telling the sim that it will only read post speed limit signs (no matter if the are hidden below the ground), but will not read the changes in speed in the track.
Setting the value to 0 will read all changes in the tracks that have no visual post (or hidden which is the same for the sim).

The route has many sudden changes of track speeds without any visual sign. Therefore setting that parameter to 0 will allow to see all those track speed changes in the HUD strip, including tiny gaps in the tracks (basically due to joining errors.
Additionally all physical speed signs will keep being visible no matter if the value is 0 or 1.

About the lights programmed speed limits, those will not be visible in the strip no matter what you do. They should be removed or rules created (as in Sherman Hill) and documented in the manual.

[minerman146]

Jalsina, If make the change and post in the 8 hours, can you confirm the change?
Up to this point I have thought I have seen all the speed changes as programmed by me into the track.
However I see benefit in changing to zero. What will I see that is different - I wonder.
For your time, my thanks, and I will execute the change.

Regards,
MM

[jalsina]

Jalsina, If make the change and post in the 8 hours, can you confirm the change?
Up to this point I have thought I have seen all the speed changes as programmed by me into the track.
However I see benefit in changing to zero. What will I see that is different - I wonder.
For your time, my thanks, and I will execute the change.

Regards,
MM

I can try. There is a triple track speed change near the start up in QD from Patterson Westbound Freight to NJ to (VIA) Suffern.
That change in the properties can be reversed at any time. It is just what programmers call a flag.
That is a modern route and therefore the right way to stay (zero) is with automatic changes (i.e. detecting track speed changes).
In most cases you won´t require doing any change. In others the changes will seem to be somewhat weird and you may even need to change the track speeds in some stretches.

[minerman146]

Jalsina,
I am not seeing invisible speed changes either before or after changing the following string from 1 to 0
<HasSpeedsigns d:type="bool">0</HasSpeedsigns>
I can tell you on my HUD I see the speed signs at the correct speed displayed as I drove the QD. As you know, I cant see what you are seeing without images. But before we go with your screenshots, there were other issues. The track from Patterson, through the QD spawn beyond the Bridge West by the Switch was 1. a different track type AND the wrong speed (60/4 not 60/40)

20161030234644_1.jpg

20161030235018_1.jpg

This shows MY hud as it was and remains. The only other thing I can think of is that you cant see my track speed signs (they are everywhere)
I cleared the track speed off of the signals to Ridgewood Jct. ( I would like to keep them, but if they are functionless, you suggest their removal)

If you have successfully downloaded the changes you get this:

20161031005153_1.jpg

[minerman146]

On a more inspirational note: Buzz's DL&W F7 at Hoboken

20161031085259_1.jpg

Next Stop - SCRANTON!
is this not inspirational for a Lackawanna route build or what?

[jalsina]

Minerman,

I am not sure I do understand what you mean.
The moment you changed that flag in the route properties, all track speed changes (due to tracks speeds...not signs) became visible in the HUD. Before that ,they were not.
What remains invisible are the signals programmed speeds which you have to get rid of them unless you define a set of rules for those changes and document them in the manual. you do define that set of rules if they exist in the real world. Otherwise you have to remove them all.

Just two examples about errors in tracks in the Patterson Westbound Freight area:

Two changes in a couple yards space. Besides, the left track has a freight speed set to 4 mph:

20161030200719_1.jpg

Take a look to the amount of changes in this stretch. This one shows two overlapped speed changes in the HUD, because they are very close.

20161030200909_1.jpg

The way to fix all those is running with the HUD, get near the place with the error, enter the route editor, click the track and press Shift 4 times and with the help of the track selector change the speeds in the track.

With the flag set to zero you can identify all these problems.
But I have to warn you. The task to fix all these speed problems in such a long route will take several weeks.

[minerman146]

Jalsina,

The route cause of ,our sometimes, lack of understanding was because you could not see the track speeds as I could. (*edit-whoa, that sounds like its Jalsina's fault -ts not!) I assumed you were seeing what I saw. Fixing this string <HasSpeedsigns d:type="bool">0</HasSpeedsigns> was the solution. There is a lot of territory in writing that needs to be done to offer an explanation, but first some realizations on my side.

1. Issues were previously reported about unexpected speed changes and were not articulated like this numerous times of the past 2 years and corrected. I had no idea you couldn't see the ribbon.
2.This section of the route is original and un-reworked - except for last night.
3. At the time this was built, I was unaware of use of the Spacebar in editor to see the track coding (ie Blue/Yellow for 60/40)
4. I thought you could not see the track signs, not the actual track speed (which I previously believed was impossible)

With Last nights update I removed the track from 300 Feet West of the Bridge all the way back to the end of the track in Patterson. If you don't see steady Blue/Yellow at 60/40 and or the 2 guys and a truck at the bridge, your track and terrain folders are not updated. Your second image shows the Susquehanna track in Hawthorne, the root cause for that was inexperience, and that is fixable, I may defer it as its more for display than for use. Let me be clear: for at least the past 18 months I have been aware of and have used the spacebar in editor to see the configuration of the track to make corrections/modifications. I have also examined (except for this area, it appears) track configuration of the rest of the route numerous times and in some places dozens of times (see Hoboken). I can state, with a good degree of certainty, that the track conditions in Hawthorne are an exception, not a rule for the entire route.

Look forward to corrections credited to you in the upcoming days. I wish we had this conversation a few years ago. And for the record, this is the first route I have built and it was my 11 year old son, that taught me how to lay track, We had a huuuuge learning curve to overcome.

As far as track corrections are concerned - this is not my first time making major fixes. I can fix and have fixed miles of track in the middle of the route before. Fixes are part of being a route builder and its very satisfying to get it done right - preferably the first time! So, your recommendations are no burden, but rather an opportunity to make this route better for all. And I am grateful to you for engaging me in this effort.

I invite all to bring any corrections to my attention for speedy resolution!

I would like to address the signal speed programming issue in another post right here. I am a little lost in what that does, I had hoped I would get yellows where there was a reduction in speed for crossovers, by inputting the speed. I appears it does nothing. Any help to get me up to speed on this topic would be appreciated.

Thanks again Jalsina!
MM

*Side Note: Has anyone gone to Harriman yet to check out the route? See old Harriman station and the scenery - its amazing!

[jalsina]

I want to add a few more comments related with speed limits fixing.

1) It would be great to have real world information as for the last few years available in the Internet, about the tracks speeds for NS and NJT. There is such information available for Union Pacific divisions in the west.
2) When working on fixing track speeds it is better doing that with a short train than an single engine, at least of 15 to 20 cars (or 10-12 cars if passenger).
3) Remember that QD considers the trains as high priority and therefore you will see the passenger (or primary) track speeds. You need to work in the editor when looking at freight speeds. And yes you have to fix both speed limits,
4) Looking at your first screenshot (2 posts before this one) you can read 4 changes in speeds in the HUD: 50-60-40-60 in a very short stretch (about a mile). While that may be true in the real world, it is not logical, increasing the speed to 60 (?) to reduce it again a quarter of mile after. It could be more logical if it were 50-40-60, indicating a reduction of speed that may be required because of a bridge, a track issue, etc... You have to fix also that kind of problems. The best is having real tracks information.
5) There is no other way to fix track speeds other than using the SHIFT tool to visualize the speeds on track, followed by the usage of the selector to change the wrong speeds and editing the values in the inset.
6) Be aware that you can have very short joints (an inch or even less). Those are bad joints over the design speed track. They will be in some cases, very difficult to fix with the previous solution with the presence of two or three speed changes. You have to overlap using the selector over the three (two) speeds.
7) If I were you I would remove all speed changes in all signals. They can´t be seen in TS HUD. Where they are used (Sherman Hill), they need a set of rules. However if you do not have a divergent track, placing a speed change in a block signal has no sense at all.
8) You invite to get help from others. Speed fixes are quite difficult to describe and you don´t know what the author wants or is following. The best is lending the track to someone so he fixes if not all , a lot of the speed fixes but always in the same area.
But this is quite time consuming, though you have places with less issues as in Hoboken (but there are some).
9) You are lost? I don´t think so. Follow what I have written and you will get it done soon. You can do it. It is only time consuming. Every time you save you get a new tracks.bin. You may want however hold the Workshop updates a little bit. Start from south or from north and always follow the line to the other side, advancing a little bit every day.

Take a look to this thread I wrote a few months ago:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16256&hilit=+speed+limits

I won´t be much available in the next coming days (not sure how long).
Good Luck

[minerman146]

Jalsina,
First, I want to say I look forward to your return. My thoughts and responses will be interspaced here amongst the others and awaiting your comment. I invite anyone else to jump in on this conversation. It may become a debate, we may have a consensus that no one agrees with, but I will do the work. What has been brought up is a key component of viable scenario and AI movement. You guys know first hand what I do not, the frustration of fault in automated and scripted train movements. I have been dreading this moment as I cannot release until all or, if agreed upon, the bulk of errors or resolved.

Let me start at the beginning to explain why the speed are posted as they are and where I get my stuff. I interpret track speed to be the maximum allowable speed for that particular section of track. How did I come to that assessment? Well, I have a problem. As you know by now this is actually an Erie Lackawanna route with Norfolk Southern and New Jersey Transit laid over the top of it for the young folk. The true believers see it and know. So, I have made concessions.

I have 3 source documents. The first is "Metro-North Railroad, Railroad Track Map (v6) by Richard E. Green. The second is track maps I have from the Consolidated Rail Corporation from 1983 from Hoboken to Sloatsburg and the third is my bible - OPERATIONS GUIDE: NEW YORK DIVISION - Employee Timetable EFFECTIVE 0201 HRS. SUNDAY, AUGUST, 25 1974 Draft Revision 5. The last document is my fathers and is the source of my quirky speed changes. I am extremely reticent to give up source number 3. What we have is a blend of Mr. Greens document (the 70 mph speeds were requested by a contingent of NJT enthusiasts), interpreted yard speeds from my father based on track conditions at the time (1966 - 1978) (speed is safest allowable - yard limit), and then the guide which reflects deferred maintenance at that time. In reality, the Bergen is a 50mph railroad for freight. I chose 60/40 as a default as a compromise between U33CH max speed of 65 and the local freight max of 40. These speeds are valid if you use the route as intended. Since these 2 types of trains would be the most numerous - not fast freight. I have replicated crossover speeds where documented in the source 3 'bible' and anywhere I was able to locate a photograph with a posted sign. (*note: interestingly, some track speeds are the same today as when Christ was a just a brakeman!)

I am mostly in agreement at this time, but I disagree that 4 changes in speeds in the HUD: 50-60-40-60 are illogical. The trains went through at 50 and they touched the brakes at the 40 section - because ... Train Orders. However, this is a simulation and it has hard rules not soft ones. What is the game impact of this?

Digest this and then we can continue! ( I Mean everyone, not necessarily Jalsina ) And this is a friendly discussion.

*note to guys who like backstories: were gonna need a bigger thread for this backstory!

[NYWhiskey]

4) Looking at your first screenshot (2 posts before this one) you can read 4 changes in speeds in the HUD: 50-60-40-60 in a very short stretch (about a mile). While that may be true in the real world, it is not logical, increasing the speed to 60 (?) to reduce it again a quarter of mile after.

In all honesty it has been a while since I ran the whole route through after the many changes. I don't do QD and we aren't talking career scenarios so losing points for speeding for a little bit is a non issue.

Every Engineer hopefully knows the route he is driving on so he is not going to accelerate to 60 and reduce to 40 in a quarter mile no matter what the sign says. If you are talking the HUD I admit I use it too but that is just a crutch not to be relied upon. I think documentation of the speed limits and pointing out any anomalies in the manual is the way to go. Any major speed screw ups not withstanding.

I have to blast through a whole run again.

[minerman146]

Try the QDs they are fully stocked and test signaling and pathing.
I would love to see how you path your train from, Trk4 in HB to Waldwick for example and keep it on track 1.
You would then find the problem I have with those double slip.
Any QD from Croxton or Hoboken to the Graham Line gets you to the end of finished scenery,

But will my speed limits screw up AI and Scenarios?

[jalsina]

Try the QDs they are fully stocked and test signaling and pathing.
I would love to see how you path your train from, Trk4 in HB to Waldwick for example and keep it on track 1.
You would then find the problem I have with those double slip.
Any QD from Croxton or Hoboken to the Graham Line gets you to the end of finished scenery,

But will my speed limits screw up AI and Scenarios?

I still will be around today.
Screw up scenarios? depends. It will basically concern with player´s train, not AI
I don´t think SL produce any type of issues to AI trains unless they are too skewed. For example that track I found with a 4 mph speed for freight (instead of 40)....it seems to be a typo.....but you can´t easily chase it without putting the route properties sign flag to zero.

The 50-60-40-60 example is based in one of your screenshots. Not a SL, but mostly an operational error. It will be in QD, career or standard.
There are other type of issues that are real problems: multiple changes in a short stretch, including two or three very near as the ones I have documented above, sudden appearance of speed limits you don´t even see in the HUD, signal programmed SL (so not visible), etc. If you used SH signals, it is possible you inherited those programmed SL.

Leaving the SL issues without fixing, in my opinion is not a choice. It would subtract value to the route. I have seen this in a couple routes published here in RWA.
Same with signals which will produce weird results in AI.

About your info sources. If you have information about a long 50 mph track why do you want to wobble between 40 and 60?
Your disagreement about 50-60-40-60 being illogical is acceptable, but in my opinion, it is the reason why the route author is who has to do all the SL and signal fixes.

[minerman146]

Jalsina, I am glad your are still around. You are politely making the case to conform to gameplay and also to be consistent between variable SL in short distance (well under a train length). Its beginning to sink in. I absolutely agree that speed limit and signal SL should be resolved. Actually, it must be resolved. I have started work on that this morning. I am working from Suffern - Ramsey.

Procedure:
Tab 4X to track Editor
Check Ribbon Colors (example. Blue/Yellow for 60/40) Correct speed as needed, relay track if necessary.
Check were sidings join the main and extend main line speed and properties onto the first leg of siding
Check Crossovers - modify with reduced SL as needed, extend main line speed through leg of switch and add SL signage.
Check Signals: 1. Remove ALL speed limits for Block signals, 2. Remove mainline SL and retain divergence SL indicator. 3. Downgrade signals to have the fewest possible legs while retaining prototype light count.
Check track joints for micro speed limit changes - splice and replace track and far as needed to correct.

This not the first time I have done this. However I have done track repairs with out following up to check the track properties. This new check is showing some issues. Hillburn Yard is a mess with speed, due to corrections, switch relaying and so on. That was slated for complete rebuild previously, now its a bit more urgent.

Route Speed Limits - General
Maximum permissible locomotive speeds for units operating or towed as subject to all train and track restrictions.
N.J. DOT GE Series Engs.–3351 thru 3382...809 through 833. . . 70
809 through 833. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 70
All other road and switch type locomotives . . . . . . . . . . 65
Yard type locomotives . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
Engines Running Light . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
Single Units Running Light
Road and Road Switch Class. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35
Yard Class . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
Engines Running Backwards . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35

Maximum Track Speed is 70MPH for Passenger and Priority Traffic
Maximum General Freight Track Speed is 40MPH
Maximum Main Line speed through switches is 30MPH
Maximum Yard Speed is 20MPH or the maximum safe speed
Maximum Siding Speed is 10MPH or the maximum safe speed

[jalsina]

Maximum Track Speed is 70MPH for Passenger and Priority Traffic
Maximum General Freight Track Speed is 40MPH
Maximum Main Line speed through switches is 30MPH
Maximum Yard Speed is 20MPH or the maximum safe speed
Maximum Siding Speed is 10MPH or the maximum safe speed

These track rules look good to me.
If you have a "Maximum Main Line speed through switches of 30MPH" then this is a rule you could create for the signals speed limits when you have a diverging track (switch) (Red over Green at 30 mph for two aspect).
EDIT:
The micro speed limits as you call them will be easily visible in the HUD. Stop the engine just a few yards before and take a look why there is that unwanted SL change.