Metro North Derails...

[CARex]

... info @ http://news.yahoo.com/metro-north-derai ... 19511.html

[imnew]

Oh no !

[buzz456]

Ahem, can you spell two man crews?
"Investigators believe that the operator of the train involved in a deadly derailment in the Bronx on Sunday fell asleep prior to the incident, according to a report Tuesday.
The engineer of the Metro-North train, William Rockefeller “all but admitted he dozed off” to investigators, DNAinfo.com reported according to sources.



http://www.politico.com/story/2013/12/m ... 00573.html

[GSkid]

82mph in a 30mph zone. The speed limit was 70mph prior to the 30mph zone, so he was still speeding either way.The black box indicates the throttle down and emergency brakes were activated about 6 seconds before the train came to a stand still. Among other words.... they were tripped as the train was leaving the tracks. No way is the engineer gonna be able to claim equipment failure. I smell manslaughter charges.

The engine was a genesis, but the cars are old school. No cameras on board....which is shocking in this day and age on a commuter passenger train.

[buzz456]

I need someone to explain to me why we think we need two pilots in a commercial aircraft for safety but think a train going 80 to 100+ only needs one person at the controls?

Negligent homicide would be a more likely charge if one is brought. I won't erase what happened tho.

[BlueLight]

The trains of old had a dead man's switch which the engineer had to keep constant pressure on or the train would shutdown. Do not today's advanced locomotives have buttons that have to be constantly pushed in order not to have automatic shutdown?

[GSkid]

Well Buzz there are some clear differences. If a pilot does die mid-flight, it needs to be flown by another pilot or autopilot. Although big airliners can technically land on autopilot, I'm not sure it's well suited to deal with crosswinds and strong downdrafts during landing. I think that's why pilots usually land them themselves. Autopilot landings are probably only used as an emergency backup situation for incapacitated pilots.. Also..AFAIK, smaller passenger aircraft don't usually have autopiliot landing capabilities, only for cruising flight. I think due to the expense and complexity of such systems. Maybe a flight enthusiast can better answer these issues.

As for a train? You just have to worry about throttle cutoff and automatic brake application. No need to worry about steering or crashing from altitude. This can easily be accomplished with a dead man switch or alerter system. So two man crews aren't needed for safety.

Needless to say, this guy will never drive a train again for passenger or freight service. Might be able to rent a loco to drive at a railroad museum.

[buzz456]

I am a pilot and know all these things however if there had been two people in the cab just maybe the other guy would have noticed the excessive speed and given a warning. That's what pilot guys do when one of them does something wrong. It's called cockpit resource management or CRM for short. It's one one the reasons the airlines are so safe. Apparently the railroads think this is not necessary. I think after the last couple of accidents maybe there should be some consideration to rethinking this whole subject. Just maybe as well as the passenger accidents two sets of eyes and two brains might have prevented the Canadian explosion as well.

[fecrails]

Of course it is early in the investigation, but if the story we're getting is true I just can't understand in this day of modern electronic sensing and control that a passenger train could be so single operator dependent for safe operation. Crazy!

[NYWhiskey]

Our stuff isn't equipped with PTC, too expensive and too many trains and miles to cover. I guess if you want to pay $1000 a month to take the train there is no problem. As it is it can be as high as $500 a month. Working stiffs like us will just chance it.

[PolyesterMafia]

Even having two people in the cockpit, or cab, does not guarantee safety. Remember the co-pilot coming out of LaGuardia back in December of 01' that ripped the tail rudder right off the plane and killed everyone on board even though the Captain was sitting right next to him? An engineer for a major railroad here in the southeast once told me a story about rolling a local up on a drunk guy that was using the track as a pillow. He let slip that "if the conductor had woke up just a moment later to alert him" , they would never have seen the guy in time to engage the e-brake.

Doesn't matter how many people or how much money and equipment you throw at a given situation. As long as humans are involved in any way, there will be fubars and snafus.

[arizonachris]

Read one news report earlier that the operator admitted to "zoning out" or falling asleep just before the accident. Event recorder tells that brakes were not applied until 6 seconds before the crash. Doesn't look like faulty equipment.

[Ericmopar]

Technically there was a two man crew, but on the passenger train, the conductor was probably up and getting ready to check tickets or something.
If the loco was leading, then the conductor would have been riding in the cars, not the loco.
On a freight, the conductor is riding in the cab, so there is redundancy with two sets of eyes.

[GSkid]

But you see Buzz it's cost of an extra engineer VS. how often this happens. It's a cost/benefit analysis. And in case you invoke the age old "if it saves even one life, it would have all been worth it"..... you can say that about anything that involves death. The deaths and injuries from passenger train accidents aren't enough to justify another man in the cab.

Speaking about commuter trains. Today I was going through old family photos and found this.....




I've told people before on here that I got to drive a freight train in the cab of an SD40-2 with me in the seat alone controlling it for 128 miles when I was a young adult. I've sited it as my only time I've driven a train. Technically I've done it TWICE, but I only cite the 2nd time cuz I had the seat all to myself and I feel it's more true to the statement. The engineer was standing behind the seat.

The 1st time was when I was 12. I controlled the train, but the engineer was in the seat and I was sitting between his knees on the front edge of the seat. So since I didn't have the seat all to myself, I never felt I was truly driving the train in the pure sense. I know.... a weird technicality on my part. I did all the controls on his instructions.

This photo is from July, 1981. It's a MBTA F40PH commuter train with 5 cars. It had a control car. That is the picture of me getting out of the engine right after having just driven it (about 70 miles) from Boston to Gardner, Mass. There was no conductor with us in the cab. This is the end of the line at the end of the day. My dad took this picture. I was so stoked, I couldn't stop grinning. Great memory!

[buzz456]

You just can't keep from the last yip.