The end of an Era: Good Bye EMD

[Chacal]

We can still have our black smoke in the sim!

[buzz456]

We can still have our black smoke in the sim!

+100

[BNSFdude]

Folks, EMD is not going out of business. The article is a little misleading. What is true is both GE and EMD will not be producing any locomotives next year (2015) as neater one has a diesel engine that is tier 4 compliant ready for production. GE hopes to start production of it's tier 4 compliant diesel engine in 2016 and EMD hopes to start production of it's tier 4 compliant diesel engine in 2017. In the mean time, both GE and EMD are biding on rebuild work to carry them through until their respective tier 4 diesel engines are ready to go. I do work for a class 1 railroad and this is the info directly from our EMD and GE on-site reps. As far as Caterpillar diesel engines not working in locomotives, that is not correct either, the latest EMD passenger locomotive is equipped with a Caterpillar diesel engine.

EMD’s 4,700 horsepower F125 locomotive consists of a streamlined Vossloh Rail Vehicles designed monocoque carbody; a turbocharged, 20-cyclinder; 4-stroke Cat® C-175 20 diesel engine; an a AC traction propulsion system.

The 567, 645 & 710 maybe dead, but EMD is far from dead, this is just a new page being turned in history.

Considering you work for NS, tell me how well those shop dwelling PR43Cs work out of Chattanooga with the C175 engines. The CATs work fine, but the shop dwell time is considerably longer than the respective GE and EMD engines. Part commonality notwithstanding.

[GSkid]

The 567, 645 & 710 maybe dead, but EMD is far from dead, this is just a new page being turned in history.

And the saddest, most heartbreaking page turn for me.

I'm hoping sometime in the future they come up with a new emissions technology that will resurrect the very reliable 2-stroke engine.

BNSFdude said CAT engines as prime movers for railroads have had issues (although I'm sure they are satisfied with their role as HEPs). Historically he does have a point. Look at the 5000HP 12-cyllynder Caterpillar 3612 engined Morrison Knudsen MK5000C....






It looks a lot like an EMD (the radiator grilles....the rounded fuel tank... the SD70MAC-like dynamic brake grid behind the cab....EMD-style cooling fans). The funny thing is....in the end, they basically DID become EMD locos.....

In 2001 The Utah Railway tested and later acquired all 6 units from Wabtec, the owner of MotivePower Industries. However, after one year of operation, all units were out of service due to problems with the main bearings on the Cat 3612 diesel engine and Kato main alternator. The units were returned to Wabtec and had the Cat 3612 and Kato main alternator removed and replaced with an EMD AR11 main alternator. At the same time, the engine blocks were replaced by EMD 3500HP 16-645F3B diesel engines from 5 retired Union Pacific EMD SD50 and 1 retired Union Pacific EMD GP50 locomotives. The 6 units were reclassed with the designation MK50-3 and are now back in service with the Utah Railway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK5000C

Here is older videos of what the gurgling and growling CAT engine sounded like in that MK5000C locomotive . At about the 0:09 mark of video #1...and ESPECIALLY at 3:10 to 3:23 marks of video #2.

Video #1...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRYo9yRXrxc

Video #2...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tR7HPj8PFA

[buzz456]

Some more Cat sounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsR9lpdAZfg

[BNSFdude]

A lot of railroads have experimented with different CAT engines to no avail. While they certainly haven't been failures on the Engines' part for the most part, the railroads still do not like them for whatever reason. BN tried with the GP20Cs, the SD40C (6330), and I think another couple CAT engines. According to my sources, all of them were quite successful, especially the 6330, but none were ever considered viable rebuild programs due to cost of retraining labor and stocking of new parts, not to mention higher cost of parts for the engines, and special treatment of them because of the need for antifreeze instead of just water.

From what Im told of the 6330, was that the sun'gun could pull as well as a U30C, and was a unique beast at that. The shop guys would have the new guys on their first day go start it, and it was an air started engine, so they'd go to crank it and immediately get a good scare from how loud the starters were.

Other railroads experimented with CATs too. CP had an M636 converted to a 3608 engine, now dubbed a M630CAT which still survives today at the Minnesota Commercial. Reports from them say that she's a shop queen too, mainly due to electrical issues.

The MK5000Cs had issues with the Kato main Alternators, and not so much with the engine.

TC&W/RRV&W picked up all of the Generation III rebuilds of the GP15/20/30Cs that BN and SOO had experimented with, and really likes them. They do not have that much dwell time in the shop and perform quite well. BN did not adapt this rebuild program with GenIII mainly because of cost, both on shop side and rebuild totals.

[Rich_S]

Folks, EMD is not going out of business. The article is a little misleading. What is true is both GE and EMD will not be producing any locomotives next year (2015) as neater one has a diesel engine that is tier 4 compliant ready for production. GE hopes to start production of it's tier 4 compliant diesel engine in 2016 and EMD hopes to start production of it's tier 4 compliant diesel engine in 2017. In the mean time, both GE and EMD are biding on rebuild work to carry them through until their respective tier 4 diesel engines are ready to go. I do work for a class 1 railroad and this is the info directly from our EMD and GE on-site reps. As far as Caterpillar diesel engines not working in locomotives, that is not correct either, the latest EMD passenger locomotive is equipped with a Caterpillar diesel engine.

EMD’s 4,700 horsepower F125 locomotive consists of a streamlined Vossloh Rail Vehicles designed monocoque carbody; a turbocharged, 20-cyclinder; 4-stroke Cat® C-175 20 diesel engine; an a AC traction propulsion system.

The 567, 645 & 710 maybe dead, but EMD is far from dead, this is just a new page being turned in history.

Considering you work for NS, tell me how well those shop dwelling PR43Cs work out of Chattanooga with the C175 engines. The CATs work fine, but the shop dwell time is considerably longer than the respective GE and EMD engines. Part commonality notwithstanding.

I have no experience with the PR43C's, but they are probably working out as well as the first 30 SD60E's (6900's) with the interstate diesel engine control system. Push comes to shove and you were EMD what would you do? Stop selling locomotives all together or use a product that meets tier 4 specs? This was not EMD choice, it's the Federal government that creates these regulations. The same regulations that are forcing the auto industry to use Aluminum body parts instead of steel, so they can produce vehicles that will meet the required fuel efficiency by 2025. If it was up to EMD they'd keep selling 710's until they reached a maximum horsepower output, then design a larger engine. As far as parts, price and training, this is nothing new. We have training classes all of the time to learn about new systems and/or locomotives. Every time we receive a new locomotive we have to purchase parts to fix that locomotive. You are only thinking prime mover, we also have to purchase electrical transmission parts. A SD70M-2 does not use the same main alternator as a SD70Ace. AC locomotives and DC locomotives are two completely different beasts that require different parts. You have the same issues right now on the GE side, Dash 9 diesel engines use different parts than EVO engines, the biggest being EVO's use metric parts.

I do not what the real issues is with the railroads and CAT diesel engines, but CAT diesel engines are very successful in the trucking industry and I can guarantee trucks do not run around at a constant diesel engine RPM. They are also very successful in the off road heavy haul mining industry and those trucks are now setup like locomotives where the diesel engine turns a alternator that supplies power to traction motors attached to each wheel. Sure every new technology has bugs to be worked out, EMD is having issues right now with their AC traction motors, but does that mean all AC traction motors are junk and everyone should go back to DC traction motors? In the long run only time will tell, either Progress Rail and Caterpillar can make a run with EMD using CAT diesel engines if they are not able to get the 710 to meet tier 4 specs and if not, I guess they'll drop EMD just like General Motors did a few years ago?

[FourEightFour]

As long as the new engines do not sound like the high rpm diesels WP&Y dropped into their units to replace the inline six ALCO 251D they had. That sound is just, ugh.

At what point will these EPA regulations stop? How much fuel efficiency & emissions standards do they expect out of a block bigger than most living rooms?

[buzz456]

Government today has no sense of the why just the what.

[philmoberg]

Bumped because it appears the story isn't over aft all, and the prior discussion provides the context:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUsg2s0 ... e=youtu.be

[BoostedFridge]

Thanks for posting! I wonder if that previous 2017 estimate for production was a little conservative.

[ErikGorbiHamilton]

Wow! That SD70ACe-T4 looks very... Mean!

[GSkid]

I like it.... except for it being a 4-stroke engine. But I guess you gotta do what you gotta do to make uncle sam happy.

They said it's a 1010 engine which means it's 1,010 cubic inches per cylinder.... the same displacement as their 4-stroke 265 H-engine used in the SD89MAC, SD90MAC and JT56ACe (China Railways HXN3).

It's a 12-cylynder engine. The SD89MAC had a 12-cylynder engine...... which was rated at about the same horsepower as this new 1010 engine.

Conclusion: The 1010 engine is basically the 12-cylynder H-engine used in the SD89MAC with improvements and Tier 4 compliance. Just too many similarities in specs with the SD89MAC's H-engine to be ignored. It's not a CAT diesel, it's essentially an EMD designed H-engine diesel with CAT diesel engineers brought in to help improve it. It has a 2-stage turbo that is basically like the GE's ET44.

The SD70ACe-T4 is 2 inches shorter in height, 2 ft 5in longer in length and 20,000 lbs more Continuous Tractive Effort than the current SD70ACe. Most of the other specs remained the same.


Here is the official EMD SD70ACe-T4 product brochure with specs:

http://www.progressrail.com/cda/files/4 ... 20_WEB.pdf



The official EMD SD70ACe-T4 launch video:




Now I just want to hear and see the SD70ACe-T4 in action!

[JerryC]

I wish EMD and GE would just cowl the whole dern thing and get it over with. Today's locomotives look like a school bus on rails.

Bring back the Spartan Cab!

[BillS]

I wish EMD and GE would just cowl the whole dern thing and get it over with. Today's locomotives look like a school bus on rails.

Bring back the Spartan Cab!

+1