Railroad shut down looms

[Ericmopar]

They already allow just an engineer on trains in Canada, and I think that engineer left to his own devices is what led to the disaster in Lac-Mégantic.
I think after what happened they reversed that, at least for HM trains.

[BoostedFridge]

They already allow just an engineer on trains in Canada, and I think that engineer left to his own devices is what led to the disaster in Lac-Mégantic.
I think after what happened they reversed that, at least for HM trains.

To my knowledge the single crew trains were only on the QNSL mining railroad, and the MM&A (of Lac Mégantic infamy)

[JerryC]

At a certain point in crew size reduction, it seems that it's no longer cost effective in other ways. Ok, you put in PTC, reduce the train to 1 person and a "Master Conductor" with drone. Your train breaks in half on the main. You either have to wait for the Engineer to stop the train, tie it down properly, then locate and fix the problem, and do all in reverse to get the money rolling again. Or, your MC is ten miles away by curvy road, so the process takes about the same amount of time, time that you have tied the mainline. Now that is not mentioning other factors such as what happens if the Engineer becomes incapacitated and cannot move the train off the mainline (after it is stopped by the Cyberdine Systems PTC system, of course). Another factor that is a growing issue is theft of cargo. Two eyes are better than one, but even two can't watch every inch of a mile long freight.

In my personal opinion, PTC should be used as a safety enhancement - like adding a body harness before you climb a ladder. A train is one big machine, that is dangerous and stressful to operate by it's sheer size alone. It's insane to believe that one man could properly by-the-book perform this job alone.

[buzz456]

Well said.

[Metrarailfan]

Well said.

Agreed!

[emdsd90mac]

There should more RDT&E done on this PTC system as well before it's implemented. I work in an environment that tests new versions of software for F/A-18 Hornets and this process takes many months of testing to gain positive results most of the time. We test and test in all conceivable configurations of the airplane before it gets pushed out to the warfighter. Silly of congress and the FRA to think they can implement something as large as PTC and have the audacity to think it's going to work without significant testing the first time especially when you take into account the vast network that it has to be installed on and the conditions it'll be exposed too.

[buzz456]

There should more RDT&E done on this PTC system as well before it's implemented. I work in an environment that tests new versions of software for F/A-18 Hornets and this process takes many months of testing to gain positive results most of the time. We test and test in all conceivable configurations of the airplane before it gets pushed out to the warfighter. Silly of congress and the FRA to think they can implement something as large as PTC and have the audacity to think it's going to work without significant testing the first time especially when you take into account the vast network that it has to be installed on and the conditions it'll be exposed too.

Sort of like the FAA which I am familiar with. All their great updates upgrades and the mother of all next gen which is rapidly turning into another fiasco.

[dejoh]

This is a big news plug. All day on Chicago radio (WGN), They were talking about all the hassles if they shut down Metra.
Not once is the complication with the installation of this system mentioned, and what it takes to get it up and running.
To be continued.

[emdsd90mac]

Sort of like the FAA which I am familiar with. All their great updates upgrades and the mother of all next gen which is rapidly turning into another fiasco.

Not surprised at all Buzz. When big gov gets it's hands on things, they tend to go haywire. I truly believe that this will not happen because of the impact it will have on the economy, unless of course this is part of the some master plan to really mess things up.

[StrategyFirst]

Sort of like the FAA which I am familiar with. All their great updates upgrades and the mother of all next gen which is rapidly turning into another fiasco.

Not surprised at all Buzz. When big gov gets it's hands on things, they tend to go haywire. I truly believe that this will not happen because of the impact it will have on the economy, unless of course this is part of the some master plan to really mess things up.

WHAT?! THE GOVERNMENT IS MAKING MORE STUPID DECISIONS?! I must be dreaming...

Agreed.

[buzz456]

"Metra explains that if it did choose to operate without PTC in place, it would be subject to potential FRA enforcement actions brought by the Department of Justice, including substantial civil penalties, issuance of compliance or emergency orders and injunctions or criminal penalties, according to an analysis by Metra's Law Department. The analysis concluded that Metra will be unable to legally operate its trains beyond the deadline."


http://www.rtands.com/index.php/passeng ... l?channel=

[buzz456]

GAO calls for additional oversight; AAR calls for deadline extension regarding PTC

"Congress can't wait until November or December when the clock is about to run out. If lawmakers want to avert a massive disruption of passenger and freight transport this fall, which will inflict significant hardships on businesses and passengers alike, it must take action now to extend the deadline."


http://www.rtands.com/index.php/cs/gao- ... hannel=282

[buzz456]

http://fortune.com/2015/09/24/ptc-safety-deadline/

[Rich_S]

They already allow just an engineer on trains in Canada, and I think that engineer left to his own devices is what led to the disaster in Lac-Mégantic.
I think after what happened they reversed that, at least for HM trains.

That is not entirely true, the first responder's in Lac-Megantic are just as responsible for the disaster and the train crew. The crew never tied down the train, because they left it running to keep the brake pipe pumped up to keep the brakes applied to the train. When the locomotive caught fire, the first thing the first responder's did was shut the engine down, the brake pipe bled off and the train rolled down the hill, because no hand brakes were applied.

Would PTC have prevented this disaster, NO. You can't stop a train that does not have any air in the air tanks.

I have a unique position on this whole PTC issue, I've installed PTC equipment on our locomotives. First problem, from day one, 7 years was not enough time to design, manufacture and install PTC. Not only do we need to installed PTC equipment on our locomotives, but we also have to upgrade the right of way. Every turnout, every signal, every mile of right of way has to be tired into the PTC computer system. It takes us on average one week to installed PTC on one locomotive. That translates into 2 people per shift, 3 shifts per day, seven days per week. We cannot throw more people at PTC installs, because of kit supply, basically NYAB can't produce PTC kits fast enough. Another issue is Cell towers have to be placed along the right of way so there are no dead spots and to feed all of this information from the locomotive to the main computer and back again and the FCC has thrown a wrench into this process several times. When we first started installing PTC equipment on our locomotives, we were receiving almost weekly software updates. In the first year, we went though several hardware updates. Starting last year we just went through another major hardware update, so all of the locomotives installs from 2009 to 2014, now need redone to be PTC compliant. The part I find very frustrating, the federal government back in 1968 gave the railroads 10 years to remove roof walks from rolling stock, but only gave us 7 years to design, manufacture and install a very complex computer system.

For those who think PTC will replace crews, this is not correct. When fully implemented, PTC will be aware of the location of all trains because of the GPS equipment installed on the locomotive, it will be aware of the wayside signals and turnout positions, it will be aware of all gradients and curvature of the right of way and all speed limits, so it's going to be more like a back seat driver. It will know if you have a stop signal and at what point you need to start breaking, if the engineer does not start reducing speed in time to stop at the stop signal, the PTC system will. Same applies for speed restrictions, turnouts not properly lined or if you are too close to another train in your block. It's a very sophisticated safety device that would have prevented the Amtrak accident in Philly, but would never have prevented the Lac-Megantic disaster.

Seriously, everyone needs to write their congress men or women and tell them to extend the PTC deadline. The railroads really have made a good faith effort to install PTC, which is a very complex computer system, but 7 years was not enough time. Also just to let everyone know, this has not been a last minute headline grabbing event with the railroads, some roads have been saying since day one that seven years was not long enough.

I can tell you NS is not threatening to shut down, but they have told their customers they will not operate in violation of the law. As the powers to be at NS read the law, Effective January 1, 2016 they will not be able to haul TIH, "Toxic Inhalation Hazard" which account for the majority of hazardous material loads. They will also have to stop allowing passenger trains on the NS rail network. Per the law, TIH loads and Passenger trains have to be PTC equipped. Even if Amtrak locomotives are PTC equipped, the NS right of ways are not PTC ready.

[Ericmopar]

They already allow just an engineer on trains in Canada, and I think that engineer left to his own devices is what led to the disaster in Lac-Mégantic.
I think after what happened they reversed that, at least for HM trains.

That is not entirely true, the first responder's in Lac-Megantic are just as responsible for the disaster and the train crew. The crew never tied down the train, because they left it running to keep the brake pipe pumped up to keep the brakes applied to the train. When the locomotive caught fire, the first thing the first responder's did was shut the engine down, the brake pipe bled off and the train rolled down the hill, because no hand brakes were applied.

I've never understood this logic since the wreck happend.
Train brakes apply when line pressure is lost. As the line pressure got lower, the cylinders should have applied more brake.
Even if the engines were left running, the brake cylinders would have bled down from leaky seals.
Someone would have had to apply the engine brakes, then release and recharge the train brakes, then reapply the train brake, once the system is recharged.
Leaving the engines running wouldn't have held the brakes on their own.
The engineer (I don't believe there was a "Crew") walked off without setting enough hand brakes, period.

The fire crew did exactly what the railroad taught them to do, and if the trainman had set enough handbrakes, the thing wouldn't have rolled away.
End of Story.