PTC Implementation

[up_8677]

Looks like BNSF is starting to implement PTC on a subdivision by subdivision basis. Newest one is the Hereford Subdivision. Not all trains are yet equipped for PTC and not all crews are qualified yet, but qualified crews and PTC equipped trains will be running under PTC.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... ?1,3186661

[BlueLight]

For those of us who do not work for the railroads or read the FRA manual, what is Positive Train Control?

[arizonachris]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control

Basically it uses GPS data, from engines so equipped (so can be used in "dark" trackage areas), to keep track of trains and try to make sure collisions don't happen. Should be able to warn engineers and dispatchers so a switch can be thrown or other action taken to avoid a collision. I read somewhere they haven't even agreed on a standard for all railroads to use, and it's pretty darn expensive, and a proposed completion date of 2015 but class I operators already want an extension, possibly to 2020.

[CrimsonKing]

Much of the PTC system only costs so much because the Class 1 operators have been so insistent on not adopting the system. Had they started 20 years ago when the FRA first strongly recommended that the railroads start using PTC systems, the systems would only need upgraded and would have cost far less. By now, those insistent on fighting and delaying the system have spent more fighting it than it would have cost to implement it. Even with the 2015 deadline, most Class 1 operators could have had even just the GPS portion of the system in place by now if they wanted to.

Are there issues with PTC? Yes. Could many of those issues have been resolved by now had the system been adopted 20 years ago? Probably, if not a yes.

[buzz456]

Much of the PTC system only costs so much because the Class 1 operators have been so insistent on not adopting the system. Had they started 20 years ago when the FRA first strongly recommended that the railroads start using PTC systems, the systems would only need upgraded and would have cost far less. By now, those insistent on fighting and delaying the system have spent more fighting it than it would have cost to implement it. Even with the 2015 deadline, most Class 1 operators could have had even just the GPS portion of the system in place by now if they wanted to.

Are there issues with PTC? Yes. Could many of those issues have been resolved by now had the system been adopted 20 years ago? Probably, if not a yes.

Maybe. A, the dollar is worth a whole lot less so make sure and adjust for change of time. Second gps technology has come light years and costs have plummeted. In aviation we are doing stuff we only imagined twenty years ago. Stuff that cost $100,000 twenty years ago can be had for a few hundred today. I am sure the same is true for the railroads. I doubt seriously that this could have been done for less back then than now unless the govmit has done something in their usual strange way to make this way more expensive than it needs to be.

[CrimsonKing]

While you are correct that GPS tech has gotten cheaper, the cost of other equipment and labor with inflation factored in may not have.

The main point I am trying to make is that even if the costs are the same after adjusting for inflation the railroads have spent money fighting the PTC implementation instead of just spending the money on the systems. All they have done is delay its implementation and "waste" money since PTC is coming whether the railroads want it or not.

[buzz456]

Big brother is everywhere nowadays.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Is PTC that precise and therefor safe? My Garmin cycletrack computer on the handlebar is good enough not to miss a path, provided the cartography is up to date.

Isn't the GPS belt of satellites under US military control? Cruise missiles are guided by GPS as well, and I have heard that in times of crisis, US DoD might reduce accuracy of the civil GPS system to increase that of the military.
It makes a difference for railroads missing a turnout while setting up a meet at night probably more than it does for your carnav in missing a turnout while driving to granny's.

[PapaXpress]

Gloom and Doom. BAH! I say.

The shuttle bus I rely on to take to work is equiped with GPS. They offer an Android and iOS app to show you its predicted schedule. I find this extremely helpful when either the bus or I are running late to and from work.

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

Gloom and Doom. BAH! I say.

How so, ins't the US eager to strike on Syria from a safe distance? These drones also make use of GPS and are supposed to be very accurate in providing intelligence.

The shuttle bus I rely on to take to work is equiped with GPS. They offer an Android and iOS app to show you its predicted schedule. I find this extremely helpful when either the bus or I are running late to and from work.

Buses and trains overhere also rely on GPS for in-vehicle timetable, delays and connection display. That app you use relies on two-way communication between bus and base in order to provide you with your bus' whereabouts?

There are presumably alternatives to the US controlled GPS, Glonass, a Russian system but probably a faux for personal use, and Galileo, the proposed "open" pan-European system.
Neither of them provide worldwide coverage and I know of no civil personal navigation systems that make use of them.

[up_8677]

There are implementation tricks that can be done to improve accuracy, too. Perhaps the railroads have some sort of agreement with the military to use their GPS?

[buzz456]

The civilian ones for aircraft are accurate to less than one meter. I would think that would be close enough for a train.

[dfcfu342]

GPS is as accurate for civilians as it is for the military after the repeal of the Selective Availability back in 2000. The only limitation on accuracy is the receiver itself and the present weather conditions. The railroads are fighting PTC because it will not be cheap (and lord knows they are tight wads) and 2015 is certainly an unrealistic deadline for nationwide implementation I doubt the equipment could even be produced that quickly.

[PapaXpress]

Big brother is everywhere nowadays.

I was referring to this doom and gloom. Though I will be quick to say I have no love for what our beloved NSA is doing.

Anywho...

[_o_OOOO_oo-Kanawha]

And we, silly, lazy, ignorant and cheapskate Europeans have sold ourselves to the devil by allowing our own IT industry to go down the drain. When I was a student in the 1980's I had a British made and designed Acorn 8 bitter that ran BBC Basic, then the best I could afford. Philips of Eindhoven was still an innovative world leader in consumer electronics, the computer was still called "ordinateur" in France, while in Germany it was Elektronische Daten Verarbeitung. Now everything is US English and IT techheads don't even know their own native language anymore.

It often reads in the newspapers like all of our telephone and email is essentially an open book to the NSA and it's allies because it runs on US hardware, uses US software, over US hubs and datacenters. And there is the fact or fable that NSA has spies everywhere and uses those supercomputers under Yucca Mountain to crack Blackberry passwords and codes? Or can fire that Silver Bullet into the internet's DNS architecture anytime to bring the whole world to a halt? Or has put trojans everywhere to bring the world under US control when needed?

Urban myths or not, it is concerning how dependent we have become and how vulnerable our present high tech gadget loving, pinching the penny, just in time delivered society has become.

The latest row overhere in the Netherlands is that some political parties to the left of our present government are concerned over our national security now that our once state owned and still present day government telecom provider KPN is about to be taken over by some Mexican billionaire and his holding with the consent of the center-right government. Apparently they do not fear for our national security, or at least privacy and integrity, now that they have just boldly banned Vodaphone from supplying government telecom services because the Brits were caught spying on us.

There are even some people that believe their Made in China smart kitchen appliance is spying on their eating habits on behalf of the Chinese noodle maffia.

Long live Open Source Software (for those that can still read)!

Back to topic:

That PTC system uses two way communication to relay positions back to the dispatching desk and for receiving marching orders. GPS positioning is one thing, 99.99% dependable unless there is a solar storm blowing, but earth bound radio communication is not. Either using the civil GSM network, or using dedicated RR channels. And it is costly to set up nationwide. Railroads should now that signaling and train control never came cheap.

It also will probably mean the end of listening in to railroads on your scanner. Heck, even I can hear Lancaster, Ca. and enjoy Mojave Sub real time radio communication over the net while rounding "The Loop" in Run 8.
There are even techheads and weirdo electronics buffs that listen in on the present RR telemetry and try to make sense of deciphered code line talk.