Metro North Derails...

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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby fecrails » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:47 pm

buzz456 wrote:Just remember while ya'll are trashing the greed of the folks at the top that this is a govmit agency, not the greedy capitalists.


You seem to be implying in your response to my comments that I am in some way opposed to capitalism. As the owner and director of two corporations that I started from scratch some thirty years ago, I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to profit from and enjoy "The American Dream" under our country's economic system. I also believe that I have operated my companies with a strong moral and ethical compass whereby my employees and customers health, safety, and lives were considered to have a greater value than my "bottom line".

What I remember with regard to the greedy capitalist, is that the American populace weighed in on that issue at the turn of the last century. The Progressive Movement, Theodore Roosevelt, organized labor, and some of the resulting legislation such as The Sherman Act and the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 among others began to bring about social and economic changes that curbed the behavior of the greedy capitalist. They've been referred to as the Robber Barons by their critics and were accused of putting human safety and treatment as a low or no priority as part of their business strategy. Not surprising many of them established our modern railroad infrastructure. Go figure! *!rolleyes!*

Agreed Buzz, I'm done with the politics. Back to train simming. !!*ok*!!
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby 1225fan5358 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:20 pm

BNSFdude wrote:Was the locomotive not equipped with a functioning Alerter at all?

Old school pedal was all that was mentioned. It should've had the alerter. It HAD to have one. I know for a fact that turning off the alerter is EXTREMELY illegal and comes with big consequences.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby buzz456 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:20 pm

I use the phrase "greedy Capitalist" extremely tongue in cheek. Only those that have owned or run a business understand that it's twenty four hours a day every day. Even when your not there you spend most of your free time wondering what's going to go wrong next and it's always when not if. Usually at least partially due to those idiots who claim to govern us.

Rant off.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby BNSFdude » Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:31 pm

1225fan5358 wrote:
BNSFdude wrote:Was the locomotive not equipped with a functioning Alerter at all?

Old school pedal was all that was mentioned. It should've had the alerter. It HAD to have one. I know for a fact that turning off the alerter is EXTREMELY illegal and comes with big consequences.

Nah. it had a deadman pedal. Completely different from an Alerter.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby bpetit » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:55 pm

Deadman pedal, didn't engineers use their lunchboxes or something heavy to weigh it down on long runs? I think if the foot came off the pedal it would apply the brakes.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby 1225fan5358 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:30 am

I thought deadman pedals were mostly replaced by alerters by now.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby arizonachris » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:50 am

bpetit wrote:Deadman pedal, didn't engineers use their lunchboxes or something heavy to weigh it down on long runs? I think if the foot came off the pedal it would apply the brakes.


In the movie "Runaway" it was a tool box. I'm not sure a lunchbox would be heavy enough. Unless you are packin' Brontosaurus burgers. !**duh*!!
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby GSkid » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:33 am

fecrails wrote:
buzz456 wrote:Just remember while ya'll are trashing the greed of the folks at the top that this is a govmit agency, not the greedy capitalists.


You seem to be implying in your response to my comments that I am in some way opposed to capitalism. As the owner and director of two corporations that I started from scratch some thirty years ago, I'm grateful to have had the opportunity to profit from and enjoy "The American Dream" under our country's economic system. I also believe that I have operated my companies with a strong moral and ethical compass whereby my employees and customers health, safety, and lives were considered to have a greater value than my "bottom line".

What I remember with regard to the greedy capitalist, is that the American populace weighed in on that issue at the turn of the last century. The Progressive Movement, Theodore Roosevelt, organized labor, and some of the resulting legislation such as The Sherman Act and the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 among others began to bring about social and economic changes that curbed the behavior of the greedy capitalist. They've been referred to as the Robber Barons by their critics and were accused of putting human safety and treatment as a low or no priority as part of their business strategy. Not surprising many of them established our modern railroad infrastructure. Go figure! *!rolleyes!*

Agreed Buzz, I'm done with the politics. Back to train simming. !!*ok*!!


Well if you were an owner and director of two corporations that you started from scratch.... then you should understand cost VS. benefit analysis I mentioned earlier. It's business 101.

How many trains and passengers have gone over this very track in the last 50 years? Once you come up with those numbers, then come up with amount of accidents that have happened on this line VS people moved and train miles run. Now look at all those accidents and total up the amount of them that would have likely been prevented had a 2nd engineer been in the mix. Then look at how much all those extra engineers would cost in salary and benefits over those 50 years and compare them to the cost and frequency of accidents that would have LIKELY been prevented had a 2nd engineer been on board.

You can't bubble wrap the world. If it was so much about saving lives, we'd have to stop people from driving cars in order to save the 30,000+ deaths we average each year on American roads. But we don't do that now do we? Why? Because based on the sheer number of miles driven each year where the occupants lives are NOT lost....FAR out number those that are lost.

Using some people's logic here, there should be two drivers on all buses and semi-trucks. Heck... why not require it of ALL driven vehicles including cars? After all.... it's about saving lives....right?!?

As for your greed comments? Greed is not a fact. It is an opinion in the eyes of the beholder. What's greed to one person, is perfectly reasonable to the next person.

As for the transit authority's decision to put a 2nd engineer on these routes now? It's all about a bunch of "feel good" public relations politics baloney. They know darn well how rarely such things ever happen. It's a statistical red herring.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby BNSFdude » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:09 am

Deadman's pedals should have been outlawed years ago on anything that isn't a scenic railroad.
I don't mind one person in the cab, but if you're gonna do that, do it safely. Have a dern Alerter.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby PolyesterMafia » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:56 am

I still disagree with havining just one person in the cab. What is time between Alerts, and what is the delay after the alert goes off before the brakes are applied? Say the Engineer on a train going 70mph has an incapacitating event just after he answers the alerter. Thats a minute, two, five (?) that your train is unmanned, plus the time for next alert and the brake application time. A lot of time goes by that this train could get into trouble at a station, a crossing, or in a curve. And I would dare say that unless PTC has a heart monitor on the engineer, even it would not prevent an accident in this case.

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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby BNSFdude » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:23 am

You'll find the alerter to be much more annoying than that Jerry. They typically go off every 15/30 seconds.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby bpetit » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:14 am

BNSFdude wrote:You'll find the alerter to be much more annoying than that Jerry. They typically go off every 15/30 seconds.


If you don't touch the controls I think.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby dfcfu342 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:08 am

PolyesterMafia wrote:I still disagree with havining just one person in the cab. What is time between Alerts, and what is the delay after the alert goes off before the brakes are applied? Say the Engineer on a train going 70mph has an incapacitating event just after he answers the alerter. Thats a minute, two, five (?) that your train is unmanned, plus the time for next alert and the brake application time. A lot of time goes by that this train could get into trouble at a station, a crossing, or in a curve. And I would dare say that unless PTC has a heart monitor on the engineer, even it would not prevent an accident in this case.

Conductor with the passengers, engineer on the right, and a brakeman with a nearby emergency brake handle. It's the only way to be sure.


Not exactly. PTC has track speeds programmed in and will adjust the train's speed accordingly if it determines the engineer will not react in time to the change in speed limit or signal indication.

Alerters are tied to the speedometer and decrease the time between alerts as speed increases. They can go from two minutes between alerts below 10mph to about 15 seconds between alerts at 70+ mph and you usually have 25 seconds once the alerter starts to clear it. The alert interval can be reset by either a control movement or pushing the alert reset button.

Amtrak trains run with two men in the cab but I don't know of any regional trains that do.
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Re: Metro North Derails...

Unread postby philmoberg » Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:11 pm

This is an interesting read:

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2013/12/08 ... e-escaped/

Evidently, he's done his homework. IMHO he understated his conclusion.
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