Completely Incorrect throttle/amperage modelling

[sd40Driver]

Hello all,

First time poster here, long time reader. A little about me. I am a second generation railroader, been working for a large class 1 railroad as a locomotive engineer now for 7 years. I purchased this simulator because it touted its realism, and I wanted to test that. Largely, it fails an nearly every area. The old Microsoft Train Sim was even more accurate in many areas. Because I have real world experience, I thought I'd share my observations.

Aside from the incorrect braking modelling (wrong in so many ways it's hard to explain in a short forum post), the throttle modelling is what absolutely unequivocally kills the immersion for me. First, the locomotives load (traction motors see current) WAY too fast, and start moving (overcome inertia) way too quickly. Completely wrong. Next, the amperage falls off to zero in between notches. For example, each notch (say, notch 1) has a preset "zero point" based on speed. For notch 1, once you reach 10 miles per hour, the amps go to zero in the game.

This is completely in violation of the basic theory of how diesel electric locomotives work. Amperage can only reach zero two ways - if the unit is transitioning to dynamic braking, or, if the locomotive is off. Even at 60 miles per hour, if you place the throttle in notch 1, you'll still get a tiny positive amp reading to the traction motors. You probably wont be able to see it on the gauge. And it wont be enough to hold that speed, and you'll slow down, but you should EASILY be able to reach 30 miles per hour or so with light power in notch 1. This is the case for each notch as modelled in the game. In my view, this absolutely ruins the immersion in the game. It gets even worse at higher speeds.

On mild curvature track, with no grades, it is common to run an average train with the power in notch one or two at track speed of 50 or 60 mph. But in the game, you would have to be in notch 5 or 6. In notch 5, you have zero amps, but go to notch 6 and it shoots way up to 400 or so. So in the game, you're constantly bouncing between decelerating and yanking hard. In real life, would certainly break couplers, and possibly put cars on the ground. Totally wrong. This isnt how any real life locomotive works. In real life, the amperage falls off in an exponential type curve. For example, last night I had a single SD40-2 on level track and in notch 1, at 10 miles per hour, I had about 160 amps. At 15 miles per hour, it was about 120 amps.

There are so many other flaws, and not minor nit-picks. Major issues, Like the fact the ammeters dont even register negative when you go into dynamics. Or the fact the accelerometer is useless because it bounces around so much. Emergency brake applications dont trip off PCS. Brakes dont charge up right and the brake pipe values are wrong during application. When you shoot the brakes from the FRED, it doesnt cause the locos to register an emergency application. None of the locomotives sound like the actual locomotives at all. The EMD's have whisps of the right sounds, but the GE is completely wrong. On and on.

Just a few thoughts from a guy who does it for a living.

James

[GERUNIMO625]

Howdy Sir, and welcome to the party!

If I was to offer any advice that I've learned from my short time on this planet in regards to your problem it would be; ignorance is bliss
As a fellow railroader of 3 years and Army Vet of 10 years I've found myself in several simulators throughout my career in both fields, and the general consensus amongst all of us is; they suck!
Whether it be the graphics are bad or the sim itself is wonky, the list goes on. At the end of the day its a computer program that was designed to either test your abilities or help you learn something, usually beyond operation of that piece of equipment, such as working as a team, or practicing an emergency or operation, in a safe environment. TSW, (as far as I know, I haven't bought it yet), looks amazing and replicates real world operations close enough to be considered fun.
Which at the end of the day is the purpose of TSW, amusement.

So personally, I stick to operations I know little about. Anything prior to 1970 and most of their UK/German content. I enjoy myself and through reading I might even learn something neat about history, which is never a bad thing.
Also when I have tried running Class 1 equipment in Railworks I suddenly feel the urge to smoke a cigarette, complain about my union, and I can smell the chemical toilet and whatever the last crew left in there, and that is not fun!

Option 3: If you have the time, find a way to contribute to the community. BNSFdude is a 'rail' as well and he makes some outstanding stuff, all in the spirit of improving the game/sim.

I hope you don't take this as me being 'snarky', that was not my intent. I am only sharing my experiences and how I deal with it, I hope that helps.

Again, welcome!

[gwgardner]

Interesting posts. To the OP, of you're inclined to do so, I'd bet Dovetail Games would be glad to get your input on how things out to be changed in TSW (your comments in this thead should certainly be helpful). There was a similar post to yours recently and one the DTG people responded with interest.

[buzz456]

Being a pilot I can say that all simulators suck and the professional ones generally suck worse than
MSFS so we just need to understand that sims aren't the real thing. That being said there is nothing wrong with the search for excellence.

[dejoh]

There is also such a thing as making a simulator too good. This company lost many sales for the fact that little Johnny could not fly this for the life of him, it took me several attempts to properly land the A-10.
The realistic operation of this simulator was what the people wanted, and they got it. A simplistic version of the A-10 would not do.
https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/ ... s/warthog/

[GERUNIMO625]

Oh yeah DCS is great!

But I agree completely.
That's why I stick to the Huey and the Mig-21 they are about as simple as your gonna get, and they still have very steep learning curves.

Take care!

P.S. Buzz, I might have to hit you up for a flight some day. I'll buy lunch.

[trev123]

So what do people expect from a 30 something dollar simulator. If you want all the bells and whistles then you might have to spend a few million dollars. Yes I use to fly real aircraft and none of the PC based FS have physics etc like the real thing either. I never ever complained about it and took it for granted what I was able to fly in a FS which I wouldn't have the chance to do for real. I think that we should be thankful for what we have got and able to run on our thousand dollar PCs.

I remember watching a Formula 1 race one day and the commentator asked David Coulthard (Ex F1 driver) who asked him a question about something, which I cannot remember but, part of the question was, how do you compare this to a simulator which he replied, look you cannot compare the real thing with a simulator.

[BNSFdude]

Yeah but even games like DiRT Rally have a very realistic driving experience when held up next to the real thing. Many rally drivers I know feel it is as real as it can get.

TSW isn't anywhere close to what it could be if the dev team fully understood how things worked and could figure out how it is supposed to translate to a gaming architecture.

[artimrj]

Well I do not take it as complaining. I love to hear from a real engineer how it really is.

[Handbrake]

Thanks for the interesting post sd40 driver. I think it is great to have input from people who do the job for real and value their willingness to get involved with our hobby and think it is amazing that they do I understand that we can't expect TSW to perform like a multi million dollar simulator but I don't think it is wrong to expect the basic braking system and throttle to work as it should in reality, unless the product is being marketed as an arcade game? In TS2017 some things, as we know, are more accurate, so why can't that be implemented in TSW? We have tunnel occlusion in TS2017 but not in TSW, should that stay as is? Personally my issues with TSW is juddery graphics on passing scenery despite a steady 30FPS but besides that it is the things mentioned above, which TS2017 seems to provide a little better and much better in some cases.
I do hope it is a success and that the dev's take on board help and advice form folks who work on the railroad. This is my No1 hobby and I want it to be the best

[g_nash]

An interesting post sd40driver.

[sd40Driver]

Thank you everyone for the responses and warm welcome. And @GERUNIMO625, that is a very good idea indeed! I've always been interested in Austrailian railroad ops, due to the similarities to US power, but also the differences. But I havent been able to find any sims specifically for this location.

For anyone who is interested in reading excellently written stories from a locomotive engineer who is a legend and mentor to many, check out Al Krug's site, here: http://krugtales.50megs.com/rrpictale/rrpictale.htm . Not many on the railroad have the time or drive to write their experiences down, and have the gift of being able to write so well. Al does it well.

Something else that gives me a chuckle is the color they chose for the diesel exhaust. Seeing as CSX is supposedly licensing their brand for this game, it's interesting they would allow white smoke as it points to poor maintenance. Generally, modern diesel engines only have thick or off-color smoke when they first start up. Otherwise, the exhaust should only be visible on a healthy engine if it's working really hard, and it should be dark but not thick. The constant white smoke shown in the game is indicative of a intake problem, a cracked block, a blown head, or leaky valves. Blue smoke is from oil burning - nearly always caused by warn piston rings. And black smoke or heavy black smoke is poor combustion. Many GE locomotives have this problem, which then builds up sooty carbon deposits in the exhuast system. Eventually, as the engine is working hard and the exhaust it hot, this will light off, causing pulses of fire and sparks to come out the stack. Other problems with stuck injectors and rich fuel can cause similar looking issues. Then of course, the turbocharger seal can rupture and dump lube oil into the hot gasses and create a flamethrower out the top. But, I digress. Heavy white smoke from a modern locomotive is not a good thing! But, considering I dont work for CSX, I find it kind of funny.

[GERUNIMO625]

Howdy,

I remember watching a Formula 1 race one day and the commentator asked David Coulthard (Ex F1 driver) who asked him a question about something, which I cannot remember but, part of the question was, how do you compare this to a simulator which he replied, look you cannot compare the real thing with a simulator.

Funny thing about that. Not sure if your familiar with Jann Mardenborough. The young man won a contest/racecar game called 'Gran Turismo' (console game) and now drives REAL racercars for Nissan, mostly 24 hour endurance races!
So maybe I was wrong, maybe simulators don't suck

jann_sebring_6-1024x682.jpg

Reference: https://www.gamespot.com/articles/meet- ... 0-6419397/

Takecare!

P.S. Maybe I need to change my Forum ID to "Derail", because thats all I do on here in regards to conversation, sorry!

[peterhayes]

SD40 driver
You make some great points about realism in TSW.
I believe that you make those points because of the excellent training that you received as an Engineer.
Can I ask how long was the training before you could drive solo, and was there a competency exam at the end, or is that ongoing.
As Trev says we spend around $30 for TSW and I believe the DTG have made a credible start (with room for improvement), and they have to balance realism (virtually that would be come almost a job) and entertainment.
It is no use being so complex that it takes several years training to operate a loco. We do not have 8 hour paid shifts in a simulator.
I have never driven any locomotive, and I like the pleasure of operating one to some degree of accuracy, in a reasonably quick time.
A 2D simulator van never come close to the real world, there is no perception of depth or space and the visual experience cannot scale to that in the real world.
There is no sense of pulling levers, dials and switches, and no feedback when braking or accelerating as to what is going on. We don't feel the bumps, grinds and sways as in a real train.
Using TSW - would I be able to drive a real train - no - not without further on the job training, but I could identify most of the controls and what they do, so for me the simulator has worked.
Remember TSW could be called a prototype and as such it only needs to be between 0 or 100% of a "type" or typical simulator. This gives DTG plenty of room to improve matters.
PS I have met quite a few real world pilots who used FSX to train on approaches to airports, etc, and they all said that the physics left a lot to be desired in terms of feel, etc, but plotting those approaches did help when flying a plane.

pH

[trev123]

I remember a guy driving in V8 Super Cars who said he had learnt to drive on a PS4, he was a privateer and was always coming last. Guess what he only lasted one season.