Petition to change DTG DLC practices

[BlackJack]

Signed!

[GreatNortherner]

Petitions are likely to go unnoticed and IMO are a waste of time. (...)

Having been involved in politics in my home town and state both as citizen and also as party member now for many years, I have to disagree with that and the few like statements in this thread. Petitions, if supported by a large number of people, can raise a lot of eyebrows at the recipient. While they are predominantly a tool for political campaigning, I don't see why Dovetail would ignore this one if it gets enough support. The DTG Marketing and Sales Deptartments will no doubt count the signees of the petition, most of whom are or have been customers of DTG products, and would likely buy even more from them if the issues get addressed.

Cheers
Michael

[Ericmopar]

That's what I have been saying. They don't care anymore either as we will fix it sooner or later just like we did with MSTS & FSX and Skyrim and CoH and...

There.... I fixed that for ya...

Don't get mad at me... I learned that from Chris.

[Bananarama]

Having been involved in politics in my home town and state both as citizen and also as party member now for many years, I have to disagree with that and the few like statements in this thread. Petitions, if supported by a large number of people, can raise a lot of eyebrows at the recipient. While they are predominantly a tool for political campaigning, I don't see why Dovetail would ignore this one if it gets enough support. The DTG Marketing and Sales Deptartments will no doubt count the signees of the petition, most of whom are or have been customers of DTG products, and would likely buy even more from them if the issues get addressed.

I believe you're overconfident about the power of a petition and where that power is applied, as what may be true for politics rarely translates to retail. Letting Dovetail know what you think via a petition will go nowhere unless supported by a refusal to purchase their products. However, you can refuse to buy and not sign a petition. If you sign and buy, the petition loses all meaning and becomes irrelevant. If you refuse to buy, then there's no need to sign a petition, as you've already taken a stance with your wallet and the petition becomes irrelevant.

[DrewG]

When you sign the petition as well as not buy it shows you didn't buy the model because you aren't happy with it. If not it can received by DTG that you didn't want the type of loco not that you aren't happy with what they are producing. This petition I hope for many people a chance to show DTG that for the money they we put into these products we want them to try harder and produce a model that can actually be considered part of a simulator.

[JerryC]

Well, let us blow the lurker status, and once again into the breach...

This petition is going to mean very little, coming from a group of 1,000 people, unless you are somehow able to get a majority of the other 140,000 likers of DTG on board. As I have been reminded often in the last few months, the Company plays to the lowest common denominator - those who just want to get in a locomotive and drive it with as little effort as possible. Those people don't care if the steam cork (sorry but the wordy durd filter got me) is in the correct position or if the locomotive has a dim headlight setting. Those are the people who you have to convince that DTG needs to do a better job with it's product. I'm not saying that DTG does not take notice of those of us who are real Foamers (and proudly so!), it's just easier to pay attention to the less demanding ones who are not, because there are many more of them and their wallets are much easier to open.

I echo the sentiment, vote with your wallet!

[Bananarama]

When you sign the petition as well as not buy it shows you didn't buy the model because you aren't happy with it.

It acts as an possible indicator, but not as a direct correlation to a slump in sales. This is why retail normally chooses to ignore petitions. A retail outfit will likely never bother with them, but may take notice to complaints in forum threads if there's a large or an unusual drop in sales of their product(s). Otherwise, it's business as usual.

[buzz456]

I think we have about beat this to death. Anyone have anything worthwhile to add? Time will tell.

[arizonachris]

That's what I have been saying. They don't care anymore either as we will fix it sooner or later just like we did with MSTS & FSX and Skyrim and CoH and...

There.... I fixed that for ya...

Don't get mad at me... I learned that from Chris.

*sigh* Out of all the things I've tried to teach him.

As to the topic, I vote with my wallet. Haven't jumped into a "new" DTG purchase in quite a while. It's become a wait-and-see reviews thing. I've spent more than a few $$$ (as most of us have, I'm sure) on new, shiny "ugh, really?"

[MontanaRails]

I'm sure I'll catch some flak for reposting this - but I figured it was more appropriate here, than the Dash 8 thread http://railworksamerica.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=11915:

My take on the whole situation with DTG is as follows.

1) LOOKING IN THE MIRROR - First of all, we need to be realistic about expectations. We always had issues with DLC, all the way back to Kuju's initial Rail Simulator service packs, and we always will. There's nothing new there. We cant expect anyone to be perfect. If they spent the manpower and time to iron out every little bug and add every feature we could ever desire, it wouldn't make any financial sense for either them or for us.

2) SUPPORT - Kuju, and RSC used to interact with their community much more. I remember when the brand new SD40-2 visual model was introduced (with TS2012 maybe?) and Adam from RSC was on the boards here, someone mentioned that it was floating several inches off the railheads. He apologized, and said they'd fix it right away, which they did! Those were also the days we'd actually get a meaningful response from their support email system... This is all now long gone. Questions, concerns, and complaints all just go straight into a black abyss, never to be addressed. It seems *something* happened with the switch from RSC to DTG that set some new ground rules that are at the core of many of our recent issues. Is the original management still around?

3) DLC VALUE - DLC used to have much more value - and they're slowly taking value away. Locomotive packs used to come in 5 + paint schemes, and often included custom (new) rolling stock. Heck, the GP9 pack even came with it's own free mini-route! Most of the time, they took the time to get details reasonably accurate on the models and paint schemes to reflect each unit's unique traits. There was an obvious passion from the modelers in the DLC. Now, it's all about getting it done and out the door as quickly as possible, assembly line style. It's all about making as much money as they can, so reusing inappropriate components of models, textures, and scripting from one unit to the next is fair game for them.

4) ACCURACY - DLC used to have reasonably correct details - and now...not so much. Not only are they charging for each individual paint scheme, they are not even making an attempt at prototypical detail. Fifteen years ago, we could blame this on the fact that they're "on the other side of the pond" and they don't have access to photos or sounds. With the proliferation of youtube and sites like http://www.railpictures.net, they don't have an excuse. We have locomotives that should have unbelievably simple paint schemes (NS SD40-2 LHF for example) that they somehow get blatantly incorrect. End-of-unit boarding handrails are the wrong color, horn is in the wrong place, plow is on the wrong end, bell is both on top of hood and under the frame, etc. This might be acceptable if I were buying a pack with 8 paint schemes all in one, but for them to focus on, and heavily advertise a single, highly specific locomotive - and then get it completely wrong, is just absurd. This, again, is not limited to one example, and has been seen across their latest offerings. The only explanation is they have adopted a very lazy and unethical corporate policy.

5) ABILITY TO MODIFY - We used to be able to easily fix their mistakes ourselves. But, they're slowly making it increasingly difficult (and now, sometimes impossible) to do this. It started with .ap files and checksum files, now they're using impossibly complex unwrapped texture sheets (the SD40-2 LHF handrail color issue) and completely burying and obfuscating scripting (the new "improved" braking, for example). We are now stuck with their mistakes.

6) BAIT & SWITCH? - We got used to their standards with amazing routes and rolling stock from the Marias Pass/Stevens Pass release era - beautifully detailed routes, and locomotives with reasonably accurate (compared to todays' releases) physics, details, and features. We FINALLY had air hoses between rolling stock, we had lit numberboards, we had custom sounds and horns. Now, with this expectation set - they're not including these things in new DLC. We no longer have the air hoses present on Marias Pass rolling stock. They outright stated on facebook that they no longer add lit numberboards to their locomotives. Many of the recent locomotives have old, default sounds from many years ago. And shockingly, it seems they've gotten into the habit of publishing features that the products don't even have any evidence of. Its not the fact that the NS 8-40C locomotive doesn't have a feature that they said it did - flashing ditchlights - its the fact that this isn't the first time they've made this "oops". The NS GP38-2 also was advertized with this feature, and still doesn't have it. That gives me a bad feeling about their motives and ethics...

All in all, I don't see a bright future for Dovetail Games unless they make major changes at the foundation of their business, and soon. I no longer buy any of their products or DLC. I support the community members attempting to fix their flawed product, cause it's the best thing we've got. I support 3rd party developers like VRC and DTM. Thats why I'm still here.

Ok. That's all I've got to say on this.

[OldProf]

It seems to me that the refusal to buy tactic would only work if DTG knew that the refusal had something to do with the issues raised by the "petition", and there's no way to let them know that. Simply shutting your wallets for a while doesn't really send a message. Tossing a Molotov cocktail without a note attached may make a bang, but once the noise has stopped it's just a matter of cleaning up the place and going on with work as usual.

Meanwhile, how about some good old transparency on this matter: how many folks have actually "signed" this "petition"?

[Bermúdez]

Meanwhile, how about some good old transparency on this matter: how many folks have actually "signed" this "petition"?

At the current time (09.16.2014), two hundred.
https://www.change.org/p/dovetail-games ... -practices

[artimrj]

You guys can post about the problems but do not start picking out individuals to attack. That is not required or desired. Let's not get lost on this.

[Griphos]

I think we have about beat this to death. Anyone have anything worthwhile to add? Time will tell.

Almost everyone but you has had something worthwhile to add.

[Bananarama]

Almost everyone but you has had something worthwhile to add.

He's here to keep the peace and not required to fan the flames.