Montour V3 Standard Scenarios

[glenn68]

Chacal and the rest,
I am glad you are enjoying the scenarios. Yes I was having problems with the Montour 10 to Mifflin Jct scenario because of the of the combination of the drop off point and ending of the scenarios. By all means if you can correct the problem send me the updated scenario to check out and once everything is good then upload it as a update to the scenario and add you name to the text part of the package giving credit for your work. Rich and I talked about the switch settings. Montour operations one of the rules was to pay attention to the switch signals. Some I have set in the wrong path (not on purpose but left that way) this will force you to stop and set the switch to proper postion then you can continue on. In the Montour timetable there was only few selected switches that had to be set to a certain direction and that was mainly in the interchange tracks with the P&LE, P&WV and PC.


Glenn

[Chacal]

Setting switches is a big part of the fun in your scenarios for Montour.

Being a small road running on train orders, with manual switches and a max speed of 15, the best way to play it is as engineer, watching for red or green flags on switches, stopping the train at each switch and for picking up the brakeman, and as brakeman, using the "8" free camera to walk around, throw switches and uncouple cars, waiting for the engine to back up and pick you up, hopping on the engine's front porch (Shift-2) or rear car (camera 3 very close to the car, not perfect but better than nothing).

It gives a very realistic local switching experience.

[Machinist]

Setting switches is a big part of the fun in your scenarios for Montour.

Being a small road running on train orders, with manual switches and a max speed of 15, the best way to play it is as engineer, watching for red or green flags on switches, stopping the train at each switch and for picking up the brakeman, and as brakeman, using the "8" free camera to walk around, throw switches and uncouple cars, waiting for the engine to back up and pick you up, hopping on the engine's front porch (Shift-2) or rear car (camera 3 very close to the car, not perfect but better than nothing).

It gives a very realistic local switching experience.

Great Chacal, that's what i like to instruct in scenarios also: go outsied (8) throw manually swtiches (grab it with "hand" pointer of mouse) decouple (click with mouse on coupler) and then back to engine.

BTW the final of my scenario I mentioned before is exactly this (last instructions, not exactly this)
- Stop at Siding 10, 45 seconds delay, message: [Engineer (to Conductor)]Finally... (phew) our job is almost done. Please go outside, decouple the first car and back to engine to the final check list.
- Drop off instruction at Siding 10: car # (one is enough, don't need to be all the cars of consist)
- Message instruction delay 1 minute, about final check list, drink a nice couple of café and off to home....
- Final Destination instruction at Siding 10.

[glenn68]

I made these scenarios not only to replicate typical operations that the Montour did and preserve a tid bit of history but also to have fun. A scenario pro I am not but I have to admit for a person who is in the military avaition industry, that loves to have fun with trains I am slowly getting a hand of the operation. If you want update the scenario so everything works properly and update the version in the file section of RW America.
I grew up about 3 miles from Montour 10 (CONSOL Coal). This type of mining operation was one of the last of a legacy of the principal of drift mining into seams of coal through shafts to room and pillar. Today it is all longwall mining. Somewhere I included links to a website where the timetables are available. (1977 timetable page 10 and 11) One of the rules was the locomotives are not permitted to go under the loading tipples due to hight restrictions. So alot of run around operation had to be done so I took advantage of this to make the scenarios more interesting.
I have a few more scenarios almost completed. One I am having a problem in the time table editor that I need to figure out.


Glenn

[jamesphh]

Well, attempted Montour 4. Was not able to complete. On the hill near McAdams siding started to get wheel slip ( N8) even sanding. Spiked at 2500 amps. Reduced to N2 and sanders to get rid of wheel slip. Made it over the top at .8 mph. Same issue entering Champion. Reduced to N2 and sanders. Stalled at coal tipple.

[glenn68]

The trick to this scenario is once you have coupled to the caboose you need to get rolling and keep the speed up as far as possible. The first time I tried the wheel slip killed me. The second time I ran the scneario I started off sanding and had myself at run-8 once I was about 250 yards passed the bridge at Montour 4. It is a pain trying to maintain speed to climb hills but also maintaining speed down hill too. Asking questions to the Montour and P&LE crews from that era this was typical operation and the SW1500's was the only way to go because of the speed of 15 mph and the available traction they could make as a multiple unit power set. The SW9's were also imployed this way but I stuck with the SW1500's since I am working in a timeframe of 1979 and the quality issues with the SW9's.( I like independent sounds and the current Railworks SW9's dont have that.)
Hopefully someday we can convince someone who can make up a full working set of SW9's for the montour that the auto numbers that work properly and have good independent sounds and I would use them.


Glenn

[jamesphh]

The hill at Mcadams I was at 14.8 when starting up the hill (the one I made it up). The hill just before Champion I was at 16 mph at the start of the hill and failed. I am sort of surprised that I did not run out of sand.

[glenn68]

Maybe I need to add one locomotive?

Glenn

[Rich_S]

Maybe I need to add one locomotive?

Glenn

Glenn,
You really don't, per the screen shot I sent you the scenario can be completed as is. The biggest secret to completing this scenario is keep your speed as close to 15 mph as possible, keep alert for wheel slips and as soon as they occur add sand and keep the throttle in run 8. Don't worry about the amps, you won't be in the red zone long enough to cause traction motor damage. Last bit of info, when you get the train in on the Champion runner track, you have to uncouple the engines to get the scenario complete message.

Montour 4 to Champion.jpg (154.52 KiB) Viewed 212 times

Regards,
Rich S.

[jamesphh]

During my MSTS day I had read that there was a chart to calculate the necessary HP needed for the train tonnage and severity of the grade. I no longer remember the post or article and where to find this. Perhaps someone can remember. This would be helpful for scenario creaters.

[Machinist]

During my MSTS day I had read that there was a chart to calculate the necessary HP needed for the train tonnage and severity of the grade. I no longer remember the post or article and where to find this. Perhaps someone can remember. This would be helpful for scenario creaters.

Forget about, at least on TS2013 (I'm already in the future). The physics are wrong, unrealistic, therefore is for no avail, it even doesn't have the weight of a train symbol, though you can calculate manually just as curiosity... Anyway, in single and fast words once it varies alot, an average (around) 3.0 HP/Ton is usually good enough to go up hill fine in most of grades.

[jamesphh]

Granted that RW physics are not correct. However, I did find a site that has some calculation for the power needed. Actually tractive effort (TE).
Using these and excluding bearing, track, and curvature variables, I came up with the following (rounded generously).The dead weight of the train is about 4700 tons. With a max grade of 1.5% about 140,000 TE is needed. The 3 SW1500's (42,250 TE each) produce about 127,000 TE. Short of what is needed by about 1 SW1500.
If the max grade is 2.2% the TE needed is 206,000. About 5 SW1500's. Train weight is an estimate based on info on coal cars which may not be correct and what weight is in the bin files I did not bother with. I am sure that someone could do a better job on the calculation, but I did find it interesting.

[Machinist]

Beyond the parameters you mentioned there are a lot of others (deeply discussed in many other threads), only in the engine itself. You would need to set all of them, not only some of them. And last but not least, is for no avail you set correctly (only) the engine if the cars will remain wrong, huh? That's the point.

Anyway is challenging and funny, no doubt.

[Rich_S]

Granted that RW physics are not correct. However, I did find a site that has some calculation for the power needed. Actually tractive effort (TE).
Using these and excluding bearing, track, and curvature variables, I came up with the following (rounded generously).The dead weight of the train is about 4700 tons. With a max grade of 1.5% about 140,000 TE is needed. The 3 SW1500's (42,250 TE each) produce about 127,000 TE. Short of what is needed by about 1 SW1500.
If the max grade is 2.2% the TE needed is 206,000. About 5 SW1500's. Train weight is an estimate based on info on coal cars which may not be correct and what weight is in the bin files I did not bother with. I am sure that someone could do a better job on the calculation, but I did find it interesting.

James,
I can tell you on the prototype Montour, the railroad rated 1 SW9 (1200 HP) per 11 loaded 70 ton hoppers. Since these cars were loaded at the mines they usually ended up heavier than 70 tons. A standard train on the Montour was 4 SW9's and 44 loaded hoppers. In all honesty, if you want to go in and add more locomotives to your train, that is up to you, but in my opinion you're loosing out on the fun of trying to get a marginally powered train over the line. If you ever stood track side on the prototype Montour, you would have seen they worked those SW9's pretty hard getting a train of green coal over the line

One of my biggest pet peeves with RSC is they over power all North American trains. Maybe that's how they do it in England I don't know, but most often railroads try to keep 1 hp per ton on level track. They will increase that value to 2 hp per ton on mountainous track and in extreme cases, they will use 3 hp per ton, but that is only to get the train over the hill. One of the funnest scenarios I've played to date is the helper scenario on the Donner Pass route, the stack train is already over powered and the scenario has you adding two more helpers to the head end. You almost have to ride your brakes going uphill to keep from going over the speed limit.

Regards,
Rich S.

[jamesphh]

I know what you are saying. The site I used for the calculations is railspur.com-pages-calculations.pdf. A downloadable pdf file. Not to start anything but even using your calculation of 1,2,3 HP per ton the train seems underpowered. There are 56 coal cars that I used 79 tons per car and the weight of 3 SW1500s. That is about 4700 tons. They use tractive effort instead of HP. The SW1500 is rated @42,250 TE @11 mph, less at other speeds. I just found this interesting. And yes, RW physics are not correct considering I have had to use N1 on a downhill grade to maintain track speed.